Systemd Is The Future Of Debian

[Skrapion]

and this is bad, the less proprietary software, the better. It's like saying that permissive licenses are better than gpl because in gpl only the copyright owner can make non-free versions of it

If you're going to repeat Stallman's rhetoric that it is immoral to make a living off of writing software, you should know that Stallman doesn't make a living at all. He was granted over a million dollars, and he lives off of that. And yet he has the gall to tell us that it's immoral to spend time making something that people want in return for food and shelter.

Open source software is great. It can be a mutually beneficial arrangement for all parties involved. But until we manage to create a workable form of communism or some sort of post-scarcity society, there's nothing immoral about making money off of your work.

[Skrapion]

It's not really a decision by Gentoo maintainers - it's a decision by upstream Gnome to use logind (which requires systemd as PID1).

Yes, technically you can make it work on ConsoleKit instead, but nobody cares enough to support those code paths... even the Upstart supporters at Debian understand that that's a waste of time, and choose to work on a standalone logind fork instead.

But Debian is in the exact same position. "Tight coupling" means "If upstream Gnome wants to require logind/systemd, then we should let them." This is exactly what Gentoo did.

[Luke]

I block Google and Facebook in /etc/hosts

I know. Of course I use NoScript and Ghostery. And Firefox - because I read it's not as easy to fingerprint than chromium (fingerprinting means using data like screen resolution that is sent to sites by your browser to nearly uniquely identify you even without cookies).

But I'm well aware that any measure I take (other than completely disconnecting from the net) will probably be circumventable. It only makes it a little harder for them. I see it more like a protest against their practices, since I don't want their world.



Sabayon (a gentoo derivate) even has a script that easily switches between systemd an openrc afaik. It seems to be as easy as executing a command and rebooting (did't try it myself).

You can disconnect from Google, Youtube(Google), and Facebook by 127.0.0.1 ing them out in /etc/hosts. Put another /etc/hosts file in your Torbrowser directory, and if you need to use them you can do so through Torbrowser, which blocks both Google's IP address tracking and most browser fingerprinting. I have been careful since around 2003-2004 to avoid having a Google search history and have always stayed off of Facebook. As for those Facebook sharing buttons, I've got them blocked in /etc/hosts and in Ghostery and in NoScript, so Facebook should not get even a whiff of what I do online. Google might get a bit from Googleapi's, which disable too many sites if blocked, but I've never heard of a warrant for that one generating enough information to send someone to jail.

Why block Google, Facebook, Youtube outright? Link protection: even when you block all the sharing buttons and embedded content, you might click on a link by accident and these three are likely to be trying to build a database of browser fingerprints. If you need to use them at all, use Torbrowser only, I also block known fingerprinting servers like Bluecava, Scout Analytics (typing cadence) etc. You probably cannot bank online with one of my machines with any bank that uses "trusted computer" verification, but I don't bank online anyway.

As for the Init system, it just needs to work, it needs to handle parallel events, it needs to be maintainable. Any init system that meets those demands is fine by me.

[Adarion]

What a sad decision.
I hope Lennart fixes his software once and for all! Because a non-working pulseaudio is one thing, but toying around with process 1 is far more dangerous.
I wish Debian had supported just like two systems. Gentoo does so. You can have openrc or SystemD (unless some crap userland program forces you to take one). I see that there is of course improvement for all sorts of init systems but if only one is chosen this one HAS to work perfectly. And NOT just on Linux kernels but also for BSD and the others. It should be kernel agnostic or at least provide an easy way for other kernels to provide the necessities.

[Skrapion]

You haven't been paying attention. The Gentoo level of multi-support is the bare minimum of what the team is discussing.

[Guest]

What a sad decision.
I hope Lennart fixes his software once and for all! Because an-working pulseaudio is one thing, but toying around with process 1 is far more dangerous.
I wish Debian had supported just like two systems. Gentoo does so. You can have openrc or SystemD (unless some crap userland program forces you to take one). I see that there is of course improvement for all sorts of init systems but if only one is chosen this one HAS to work perfectly. And NOT just on Linux kernels but also for BSD and the others. It should be kernel agnostic or at least provide an easy way for other kernels to provide the necessities.

I wish there will be wearing that fits everyone perfectly. And NOT just humans, but dogs and cats as well. We're stupid, aren't we? Debian made best decision. I wish them to drop kfreebsd which has less than 0,01 market share in Debian and lacks Linux features. Such legacy crap shouldn't be slowing them down.

[xeekei]

I wish there will be wearing that fits everyone perfectly. And NOT just humans, but dogs and cats as well. We're stupid, aren't we? Debian made best decision. I wish them to drop kfreebsd which has less than 0,01 market share in Debian and lacks Linux features. Such legacy crap shouldn't be slowing them down.

While I agree that a BSD version with the GNU userland is a little weird, neither of us have any right to tell these people what to do with their time. Though I don't get why these side projects are seen with this much importance.

[TheBlackCat]

neither of us have any right to tell these people what to do with their time.

Except apparently you have the right to tell them to take the time to support two init systems.

[doom_Oo7]

After all, what is the true spirit of Linux? Having an OS that you can tailor to suit your specific needs.

Oh for fuck sake there is no true spirit of Linux!

It's like, if tomorrow somebody made a car engine that was able to work with 1/10th of the oil to achieve the same momentum, with increased safety for the user, wouldn't you expect every car manufacturer to switch to this engine ? If I was a politician I would definitely ask for a law making illegal other kind of engines in broad distribution.

[Baconmon]

A moment of truth

I wish them to drop kfreebsd which has less than 0,01 market share in Debian and lacks Linux features. Such legacy crap shouldn't be slowing them down.

You know what?.. I think you are right.. I too, deep deep down inside, wish also that debian would drop BSD or hurd...and only focus just on linux.. It would make things a lot simpler that way.. Other distrobutions don't try to support tons of other weird non-linux platforms..
And I think it is noble of debian to try to be the "universal operating system", and that is why I think it is a little bit taboo for some one (like me for instance) to say things like "I wish debian would drop BSD", but when you think about it logically in a technical sense, it really makes sense to quit bending over backwards trying to make every package not only work on linux, but also on BSD or hurd, even though BSD is a microscopic fraction of the users that use debian..

In other words, even though BSD debian users are such a tiny minority, for some reason I think it would seem taboo for some one (for example, maybe a TC member or whom ever) to make a proposition to remove BSD support from debian.. So, therefore, I think BSD support will probably stay in debian for ever, even though it adds lots of more work to make every package compatible for BSD, even though it helps only 7 or 8 debian BSD users in the world..