System76 Reportedly Developing Their Own Rust-Written Desktop, Not Based On GNOME

[Khrundel]

This is not a game you were just offensive without no reason and I don't care about people like you.

Lol

Anyway it is too funny how the quote I made disappeared from your reply.

Maybe I believe it was too irrelevant to answer. If you insist, quote it again.

But I already got you!
You are one of those folks in here that try desperately to be employed by one the big IT corps; hoping them watching how you are committed with their projects!

That reflects typical IQ level of GNOME haters. Do you really believe someone with power from big company will read comments? Especially on 17th page? And then will contact one of the commentators, not knowing his profession, to ask if he wants to work for them? Khrundel is not my real name, so HR won't find these posts even if they will bother.
If you aren't some famous speciallist and want to work for a big corp you should click "we are hiring" button on their site. And be prepared to work for a food for a period of time, until (and if) they will find you are useful. Or, if it is a opensource project, you should send some patches of at least fill bugreports. Comments won't work.

[Khrundel]

bruh what is with this khrundel guy, he's looking to get angry at people he thinks dislike gnome? I've just been skimming through this thread but he's acting like a grade A autist.

So, if you are trying to move discussion from "GNOME is bad, mkay?" to real details of the conflict, you are angry autist. And if you just trying to insult someone, with whom you do not agree, you are polite and 100% sane person?

[Ironmask]

So, if you are trying to move discussion from "GNOME is bad, mkay?" to real details of the conflict, you are angry autist. And if you just trying to insult someone, with whom you do not agree, you are polite and 100% sane person?

The dude keeps saying over and over that he doesn't hate GNOME but just had some bad experiences with it and you're calling him an evil gnome hating culting and every time he corrects you, you plug your ears and say he hates GNOME for no reason (because I guess you're not reading his posts?)
Are you just here because you're lonely?

[Khrundel]

The dude keeps saying over and over that he doesn't hate GNOME

Yes, he did. But should we believe him?
When someone says he hasn't any bias against GNOME and GNOME devs are bad and they always been like this don't you see a contradiction? I mean he can believe his opinion about GNOME is based on some real things, but he can't deny he clearly has prejudices against GNOME.

I've explained what actually happened and asked why he believes it is GNOME devs who are on a wrong side of this conflict. He had 2 options, he could admit he wasn't aware of current issue and fallen to his bias and had been used by system76 developer. Or he could object, he could tell my description is wrong or incomplete, I've missed some important detail X. What did he choose? He just accused GNOME devs, said they violated an important rule, they made some changes which break other people expectations. I've demonstrated him his rule is impossible to follow, that he'd violated it himself. He had 2 options again, he could admit he was egocentric and did not check if he follow same rule he tried to impose on GNOME. Or he could amend this rule, he could tell I misunderstood his rule and developers are not allowed to make not any decision, but decision matching criteria X. What did he choose? He tried to bury discussion within some irrelevant details about his experience and his opinion on GTK2 vs GTK3 look and to strawman my point, he pretended I suggested everyone should follow GNOME HIG.
So why do you think you should believe such liar? Because he hates GNOME too?
Excuse my rudeness, but someone has to tell it: all GNOME haters are idiots. I mean why hate some software? If you believe it is bad, just don't use it. Forget about it and let it sink into oblivion. Isn't it stupid to side with every crook like system76 developer who tells he was cheated by GNOME?

[mdedetrich]

No, it is System76 who doesn't care about their own customers experience. Otherwise they wouldn't ship theme which breaks applications. They care only about first impression of not being another cheap Debian/Ubuntu clone.

This is a logical fallacy. If we are intellectually honest and take System76's assumption that its the reason why the user experience (in their eyes) is bad is because of adwaita theme then the logical solution for them would be to use a different theme.

What they could do to cope with GNOME libadwaita decision?
1. They could ship adwaita, limiting their branding to splash screens and default wallpaper.

Which they won't do because System76 thinks the default Gnome setup is shit (and I am not talking about just the wallpaper/splash screens here)

2. They could use GNOME's suggested solution: recolored adwaita, which wouldn't break app's layout

Which they also think is shit

3. They could add their own "platform" library, libpop or libcosmic instead of libadwaita, with their own theming engine, and maintain a port of every GNOME app to this library.
What they suggested instead? To whitelist their "pop" theme, so user will not be able to select own theme, but pop!os would ship with "blessed" brand theme. (see: https://gitlab.gnome.org/GNOME/gtk/-/issues/4230 )
I wonder how anyone can support their point.

Which is what happened because points 1 and 2 weren't an option for them.

Also to be frank, supporting proper theming is pretty much a given for any decent UI toolkit. The fact that Gnome/GTK is already going down this route is speaking volumes about the problem already. And this is what I meant by Gnome being optimized for developer experience, and by developer experience I don't mean UI experience for developers, I mean making it easier for developers working on Gnome/GTK applications. You can do this in multiple ways, and one way is to just completely kill theming since you have less to deal with.

Redhat (where most Gnome developers work) don't ship laptops to non technical end users, so the UI experience for those end users is not a priority for them. For them, they want Gnome to just be a UI toolkit thats easy to develop for so they can quickly create GUI wrappers for doing system administration. System76 on the other hand does ship laptops and they include "normal" users in their demographic (thats why they even have phone support), so for them user experience is a priority above all else. This mentality is similar to MacOS (in fact many can argue that System76 is the Mac of the Linux world), they actually put a huge emphasis on UI experience for normal users.

[Khrundel]

This is a logical fallacy. If we are intellectually honest and take System76's assumption that its the reason why the user experience (in their eyes) is bad is because of adwaita theme then the logical solution for them would be to use a different theme.

Why you believe this madness is something "intellectually honest"? Did System76 said something like this? Did you ever heard they try to fix adwaita before introducing their pop theme? No. It is common knowledge that all they want is their brand theme. And they've never objected.
Or look at their proposal: https://gitlab.gnome.org/GNOME/gtk/-/issues/4230
They've enumerated themes which should be allowed: arc, pop and yaru. 2 of 3 are distro themes. You can easily notice what was on their mind.

So, your assumption is obviously false. And this allows me to skip almost all gibberish you've written.

Also to be frank, supporting proper theming is pretty much a given for any decent UI toolkit.

That is not true. Afaik, Qt is only toolkit which supports theming. At least among popular. There are no need for themes. Most popular OSes don't support them.

The fact that Gnome/GTK is already going down this route is speaking volumes about the problem already. And this is what I meant by Gnome being optimized for developer experience, and by developer experience I don't mean UI experience for developers, I mean making it easier for developers working on Gnome/GTK applications. You can do this in multiple ways, and one way is to just completely kill theming since you have less to deal with.

The whole point of toolkit existence is to help developers. Time developer spent to fight with themes have been stolen from doing something meaningful. And Gnome trying to add sane themes support, dark adwaita and high contrast adwaita. That is why they need to take control over theme loading.

Redhat (where most Gnome developers work) don't ship laptops to non technical end users, so the UI experience for those end users is not a priority for them. For them, they want Gnome to just be a UI toolkit thats easy to develop for so they can quickly create GUI wrappers for doing system administration. System76 on the other hand does ship laptops and they include "normal" users in their demographic (thats why they even have phone support), so for them user experience is a priority above all else.

Just reminding you same link: https://gitlab.gnome.org/GNOME/gtk/-/issues/4230
System76 doesn't care about ability for users to select theme. If they would, they could stop forcing their shitty theme right after https://stopthemingmy.app/ have appeared. Their suggested solution is to forbid theme overriding for user but allow for them. They've tried to throw all theme developers and all theme users under the bus just to get exception for themselves.

I don't know how much mental gymnastic someone should perform to actually believe they care about anything except funny looking screenshots of their petty ubuntu clone.