System76 Reportedly Developing Their Own Rust-Written Desktop, Not Based On GNOME

[mdedetrich]

"Extraordinary claims"?

Looks like you know more about GTK theming than app developers: ( https://stopthemingmy.app/ ) "This is aimed at distributions breaking apps by default"
and even System76 developers ( https://gitlab.gnome.org/GNOME/gtk/-/issues/4230 ) "GTK themes can introduce issues in applications which do not support them."

Maybe that is because GNOME currently doesn't support theming? Some GNOME apps, terminal for example, allows you to switch light/dark themes, most of them don't. Adwaita dark, when forced from gnome tweak tools, doesn't contain per-application tweaks, so no wonder it doesn't work with some apps expecting adwaita only.
Whole this thing started from GNOME's effort to add support for limited global theming, such as dark and high contrast. With externally forced "foobar" theme this would be impossible, how gnome's configurator would know that foobar is light and it has dark variant foobar-dk? So they've disabled external theming for their libadwaita platform

All I am getting from this is that Gnome is a shitty GUI toolkit that doesn't support the usecase that System76 wants (they wan't to use a different theme because Adwaita is crap) which explains why they are making their own toolkit now

[ssokolow]

This is a factual description. It either correct or not. If it can be digested so, it should be. If you can give another, not some clever wording and vague philosophical stance, you are welcome to write it. But you avoiding any clarity.

I don't feel it'd be productive to respond to this... but I'll say that explicitly so you don't claim I'm ignoring it or brushing it under the rug.

If your projects aren't so popular, that doesn't mean you are not guilty. You know you've broken your commandment.

No, forcing GNOME 3.x HIG on KDE, LXDE, Xfce users would be "breaking my commandment". I develop end-user applications, which means the end-user visible interface is the interface to be kept stable at all costs.

You've misrepresented what I've written.

Sorry. (Unlike you, I'll admit it when I do, rather than doubling down.)

My point remains. I've always prioritized feeling native on KDE, LXDE, and, Xfce. If GNOME forces me to choose between them and GNOME, it's GNOME's fault when I allow my creations to become alien on GNOME.

They forced the need for a decision. Thus, it's their fault when I leave their ecosystem by the wayside to provide proper support for the ecosystem I've always been prioritizing.

No, it is fair to blame you. As long as you trying to judge GNOME for breaking arbitrary rule you've invented, you have to be judged by same rule. That would be fair.

...and here we go again. Trying to blame me for inventing an "arbitrary rule" that's just an observation about other people's thoughts and behaviours.

I notice you didn't react to my comment about how GTK spent a decade being "the common toolkit" before GNOME 3.x decided to change things up, how Xfce predates GTK, how I'd been developing for Win9x-style GTK for years before GTK 3.x came about, etc.

Why would I?

Because, just like me, he's someone who used GTK 2.x to produce apps for a non-GNOME desktop and, when GNOME 3.x forced the issue, he ported them to Qt.

No, it is about theming only. You can't expect someone will filter and evaluate all your grudges.

OK, I think we're done then, since you've just made it absolutely clear that you're unwilling to engage in productive discourse.

If you're going to demand that I accept your straw-man argument as my position, there's no point in continuing.

[Khrundel]

really don't care if you feel upset because someone is "hating" Gnome, which is not by the way.

Ok, lets play a game "who cares less about other's feeling".
No, there is no problem about me being upset. There is a problem with several people who yell much but know nothing. So, in a way, I've given you a gift, a chance to understand that your hatred makes you do dumb things. But looks like you'll waste it.

What you would argue against us, gnome haters, has been kindly confirmed by Gnome itself:

(emphasis mine)

https://adrienplazas.com/blog/2021/0...ibadwaita.html

Hmm... They say they won't force GNOME-specific changes over GTK to avoid problems for other GTK users and instead create libadwaita to place these changes there. And you carve their citation to look like confession about them harming GTK. Good for you. Do you plan to become a politician?

[Khrundel]

All I am getting from this is that Gnome is a shitty GUI toolkit that doesn't support the usecase that System76 wants (they wan't to use a different theme because Adwaita is crap) which explains why they are making their own toolkit now

If you would read gnome's guy blog about ideas behind gnome, you'll see they prefer to deal with problems correct way. Not by creating per-application patches to themes.
And I doubt System76 are able to create anything. Canonical have tried to develop their own desktop and found it cost too much. Only desktop, they were using gnome apps afaik. Do you believe System76 will be able to create everything, including filemanager, editor, terminal, picture and pdf viewers? They will have to, to support theming. And they already made strategic mistake: they say they are targetting x11. Wayland was designed to make easier to create display server, there is a good library wlroots, but instead they choose harder task to start with x11 backend. Couple of years later they can get working and obsolete DE and much more work ahead to adapt it to support wayland.

[Khrundel]

I don't feel it'd be productive to respond to this... but I'll say that explicitly so you don't claim I'm ignoring it or brushing it under the rug.

You still ignored it.
So, you don't have more honest description of current issue than mine? OK. Why you blaming GNOME then? They are trying to implement theming and placing gnome-specific code into gnome-specific lib.

No, forcing GNOME 3.x HIG on KDE, LXDE, Xfce users would be "breaking my commandment". I develop end-user applications, which means the end-user visible interface is the interface to be kept stable at all costs.

So, it is a sin when it is against your wishes. You can do whatever you want with your apps, regardless of what some user may think, it is your vision that matters. But GNOME can't do what they want with their own DE because their DE is so good and some other people depend on it (and not on KDE or Mate or whatever)

Sorry. (Unlike you, I'll admit it when I do, rather than doubling down.)

LOL.
Mate, you can't say "sorry" and then pretend you better than me because you lied and then say you're sorry. And you can't say sorry and continue to strawman my point. You still pretending someone wants to force GNOME HIG over you and all humanity.
And you lied again: all you currently doing is doubling down after you've found out your original accusation was a BS.

My point remains. I've always prioritized feeling native on KDE, LXDE, and, Xfce. If GNOME forces me to choose between them and GNOME, it's GNOME's fault when I allow my creations to become alien on GNOME.

And GNOME always said they don't support theming. So you have to choose. It either you have to amend your invented rule to include author's intention and then that rule will make both you and GNOME look like good or insist on original formula and admit that your intention is irrelevant and you've committed same sin when you've changed toolkit.

It is funny to look as you trying to dodge, but all becomes boring sooner or later. So stop trying to bury important things withing BS about your intentions and your thoughts about how GTK should look.

...and here we go again. Trying to blame me for inventing an "arbitrary rule" that's just an observation about other people's thoughts and behaviours.

No, I'm not blaming you for inventing rule. There are good rules and someone have to invent them. I'm blaming you for your hypocrisy, for attempts to avoid applying same rule to you. I will stop blaming you same moment you'll agree to be judged by same rule as you judge GNOME.

I notice you didn't react to my comment about how GTK spent a decade being "the common toolkit" before GNOME 3.x decided to change things up, how Xfce predates GTK, how I'd been developing for Win9x-style GTK for years before GTK 3.x came about, etc.

I think this is just BS. I have no need to comment every irrelevant detail as "they've increased margin, it breaks everything".

OK, I think we're done then, since you've just made it absolutely clear that you're unwilling to engage in productive discourse.

If you're going to demand that I accept your straw-man argument as my position, there's no point in continuing.

Confession through projection.
I was never strawmaning you, I've found you are hypocrite and demonstrated this. My point was same from beginning: you can't blame developer for doing what he wants with his own project. If you try to limit his freedom with some additional rule, it has to be general rule, applicable to every developer and every project. Including you.

And you instead preffer to discuss about how GTK buttons should look, win95 like or flat or maybe motiff. "Productive discussion" as you've said. Sorry, without me.

[Danielsan]

Ok, lets play a game "who cares less about other's feeling".

This is not a game you were just offensive without no reason and I don't care about people like you.

Anyway it is too funny how the quote I made disappeared from your reply.

But I already got you!
You are one of those folks in here that try desperately to be employed by one the big IT corps; hoping them watching how you are committed with their projects!

Good luck with your recruitment...

[Ironmask]

bruh what is with this khrundel guy, he's looking to get angry at people he thinks dislike gnome? I've just been skimming through this thread but he's acting like a grade A autist.

[pal666]

Gnome doesn't care about user experience because its not their market, they care primarily about developer experience (which explains almost all of their controversial changes).

System76 however actually sells laptops to non technical users with their own distro, in other words their bottom line actually indirectly depends on user experience for users, otherwise they sell less laptops.

ok, so you live in an alternative universe where there's an evil gnome from rh and knight champions from system76. in our universe many laptop vendors are contributing to gnome(and more than system76)

[pal666]

They also expect to install 3rd party software on whatever distro is available

that's what flatpak is for

[pal666]

It is well known that a lot Gnome devs are paid RH employs

it is well known that you post nothing but bullshit