NetBSD On The State & Future Of X.Org/X11

[Grinness]

XFCE devs are not responsible for this: https://gitlab.freedesktop.org/wayla...d/-/issues/233

And the fact that Wayland compositors are not interchangeable and glued hard to their respective DEs which I've reported twice in this thread already.

Amazing reading comprehension! Amazing logic! Amazing argumentation from Wayland fans.

More like zero or negative.

Please do not continue posting links to it in all other issues, as this is effectively spam and will lead to your account being blocked.

https://gitlab.freedesktop.org/wayland/wayland/-/issues/233

go away!

[Sevard]

Reminded me of what? That you you can lie through your teeth? In the 90s and 00s we had XFree86, then it was Xorg, the same freaking X11 server for all Linux distros.

Tiny Core Linux uses TinyX implementation. Some other small distros used to use other lightweight X11 implementation such as Xfbdev, tinyxserver, KDrive (as far as I know it's dead) etc. I'm not sure which of these are still alive, but TinyX for sure is. Some small distros use patched versions of Xorg, because Xorg alone is too heavy. Also there are some X-on-X implementation like Xephyr and Xnest. So there are still some X11 implementations in Linux world other than Xorg one.

[AlanTuring69]

I almost wish I could use Haiku's window system on Linux. COSMIC is very exciting, wonder if it will ever come to NetBSD

[ZeroPointEnergy]

I try to switch from time to time, but so far I have not found a compositor I like that actually runs all the stuff I need without issues.

Will probably try Cosmic next once it releases.

Does that make me a "zealot"?

[oiaohm]

And the fact that Wayland compositors are not interchangeable and glued hard to their respective DEs which I've reported twice in this thread already.

Is this in fact true. The answer is in fact no.

KDE robustness has you hot swapping your Wayland compositor on the fly.. So KDE DE is not 100 locked to kwin their Wayland compositor.

Weston is design to take plugins to alter it window manage to how ever the DE wants.
Mir is design to run a Windows manger application.
Arcan (yex a12 but is also Wayland compositor) is also design to take a window manager application.

These 3 are absolutely not locked DE. Problem here is that the third party Window manager interface is unique to each one and 100 percent not compatible with the prior X11 windows manager interfaces.

wlroots also has standards for plug-able parts of the desktop that KDE as well supports. Weston can be made support by plugin with wlroots stuff.. So yes parts of KDE desktop you can use under any wlroots wayland compositor.

Are all Wayland compositors not interchangeable this is not true.
Are all Wayland compositors locked to a DE this is also not true.
What is true is there is no universal way between Wayland compositors to write a common code window manager.that works on them all. Migrating to Wayland is also rewrite all your Window manager code using what ever API you choose..

[darkonix]

The problem is Wayland looks like it was royally misdesigned. How come Vista came out and was in a much better shape from the get go (yeah, more than 5 years in development but Wayland has been in development for over 15)?

Wayland should have never been this fragmented, it should have offered an Xorg server alternative from the get go, so that everyone could start hacking for it, instead people started hacking individual Wayland servers and software for them. We've literally wasted years of development time. I go back to Wayfire every year and come away completely dissatisfied. IceWM was in a better shape in just a few years and it had a single developer. There's a small team behind Wayfire and they have been struggling hard to deliver.

This is just terribly sad. "All fine", according to KWin/Mutter users though Mutter users don't have the guts to admit that Mutter is in bad shape in terms of Wayland features.

It is unfathomable. Unless it is because Windows Vista was designed and developed by one of the biggest software companies in the world, that completely owns and control every aspect of their operating system, from drivers to the UI? No, that can't be it.

And maybe Wayland developers didn't had influence to impose a new implementation to Linux desktop environments? And they didn't want to implement Wayland protocols mostly until recent years? Nonsense!

Because Mir was a direct competitor in the beginning and that helped fragment the ecosystem? Crazy!

It must be some reason beyond human understanding for sure.

[oiaohm]

I want to run XFCE and I don't give a damn what's underneath as long as it works. If Microsoft releases WDDM for Linux tomorrow as open source and it's gonna work as well as or better than X11 does (and it will as it's miles better than anything Linux has had, Linux with Wayland looks like it's straight from 1995), I will use it gladly. I never said I disliked Wayland but I totally hate how it's been implemented.

No Microsoft has already tried WDDM under Linux with WSL2. Turns out the basic Unix model of everything is a file is not exactly compatible with the Windows NT model of everything is object.

The WDDM only really works with WSL2 because the driver side of WDDM is being processed host Window kernel. Linux kernel based around everything file make scheduler and memory management way differently implemented.

Avis like it or not Microsoft has already released WDDM for Linux and found it highly incompatible. It is Nvidia eglstreams levels of incompatible.. Yes lots of work around code latter and WSL2 usage of WDDM somewhat works but would not work with the NT style kernel removed. WDDM is absolutely not a magic bullet.

[oiaohm]

Reminded me of what? That you you can lie through your teeth? In the 90s and 00s we had XFree86, then it was Xorg, the same freaking X11 server for all Linux distros.

This skips over in the 1990s people like me had to buy Accelerated-x and other X11 servers so our GPU were not bricked because Xfree86 did not work. In the 1990s there was Linux distributions that came with Accelerated x not xfree86 for this very reason. Yes commercial paid for Linux distributions.

90s to 00s is not a clean time. Remember Nvidia GPU does not exist until 1999.

ATI and Matrix released GPU before Nvidia. But for your early 90s with these GPU they required parties like Accelerated x to pay for documentation to write driver or to have them make drivers.

Avis there is something I truly thank Nvidia for. Nvidia was the first GPU vendor to give away their own developed GPU drivers to Linux/freebsd/Solaris users for free and being xfree86 compadible. Before that you are operating under model you buy your GPU then you have to buy your drivers and the drivers you would not be xfree86 compadible. Yes this starts the ball rolling that leads to us having the open source GPU vendor supported drivers.

The 90s is still the time of the Commercial Unix Desktop where if you want it to some work it going to cost you arm and leg.

Basically you are having rose colored glasses here you need to take them off. The 90s was not a good time to be attempting to use a GPU under Linux on a budget.

[WileEPyote]

And don't get me started on the fact that XFCE, the third most popular DE, 15 years after the protocol inception doesn't currently support Wayland at all.

https://www.phoronix.com/news/Xfce-4.20-Wayland-Roadmap

Yeah, but they are at least working on it.

Obviously I'm talking about the future because X11 is in a good spot right now, whether you like it or not.

I obviously can't predict perfectly what will happen in 10 years, but by that time I'm sure Arcan will be "ready", even if X11 dies.

Complete and utter bullshit. Do you fucking know what "most" means? It doesn't mean your pathetic GNOME, KDE and a couple others. That's like 3-4. There's probably tens out there, even if YOU consider them "irrelevant" it doesn't make it so. Legit couldn't care less about your opinion on what DE is "worth".

"Active" development and can't even get basic features right. Who the fuck cares?

X11 is far more complete than Wayland at this point so Wayland having active development means literally nothing.

It also isn't that active, lol.

I do and will continue to do it as long as at least 1 Wayland puppet makes a post about how it works for him.

I don't give a flying fuck about your pathetic attemps at censorship, I know that's what you want. You know that Wayland sucks but want to hide all the negative facts about it and keep the good ones only, so it "seems" perfect.

Well reality doesn't work that way because I'm here to burst your bubbles.

Remember: if Wayland didn't suck, didn't lack essential features, wasn't such a crippled garbage toy, then I wouldn't have fuel to speak against it, would I? So think about it how to "solve" this the proper way.

Cope harder.

I have nothing to cope about. I'm not the one with a vendetta against a display server. I use both. The only people that need to cope are the ones that can't accept that unless we take up development of something else, Wayland is what is coming. You don't want that? Find a way to change it and keep using x11 in the meantime.

I frankly don't care what the standard is, as long as it does what I want.

I'm just tired of all you "wayland sucks" and "x11 sucks" people clogging threads with your bullshit. Both of you groups are assholes. STFU about it already or do something to change it.

Wayland is currently the future.

cope bitch.jpg

Again, no evidence that security holes in X11 cannot be closed with X11 or other software.

Unfortunately they can't if nobody is willing to do the development work for it.

Personally, I'm a lax security kind of guy, so it doesn't even matter to me. I mean I guess I understand the argument, I just find it moot to me. Everything important to me is backed up offline. I just want my computer to do the things I want, and use whatever tools I need to do that.

Maybe if I was a dev, I'd be more concerned about the technical backend aspects, but I'm not. And honestly, the majority of end users are most likely of the use whatever works mindset, and don't care at all about the technical aspects.

The only point I keep trying to make is, the writing is currently on the wall for x11. That could change in the future, but that's just where we are today.

[tobias]

Wayland by default induces an extra frame latency for mouse movements which for a 30Hz refresh rate means your mouse movements will be randomly delayed by 0-33ms. Good luck with that.

No idea which compositor you tried, I am sure there are some that are buggy like that. But the widely used ones just blit the mouse over the composed screen as fast as possible. That's the same as X11 does it too and literally every other UI system out there.