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NetBSD On The State & Future Of X.Org/X11

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  • Originally posted by avis View Post
    Prolly people would love some quotations, right? Welcome!

    An up to 60ms extra latency for a 60Hz monitor. Wayland shines!

    But planes! Planes have certainly saved the world.
    I see problem. You applied this in the other post to mouse cursor. Have you not noticed screen will have a tear straight though a mouse cursor yet the mouse cursor does not have a tear. This is because its on a different plane if it a compositor or X11 server run mouse cursor.

    Also read the 3 follow up responses. Turns out that post is based on game engine not anything Wayland..

    So that 32-60ms by Daniel Hill is not a Wayland compositor value and he is not a Wayland developer. Notice avis no author/owner/reporter next to Daniel Hill name.

    just because something is on does not make it authoritative source.

    So avis; you just posted garbage. This is the problem with using AI response as well it will believe garbage like that and hide it sources.

    By the way the issue with game engines is a interesting one. Lot of game engines are not designed to take advantage of GPU provided planes to min mouse cursor latency. So the game self render mouse cursor does get the 32-60ms problem when forced to vsync. This is a game engine design defect. .

    By the way using planes for mouse cursor does not have the "theory v-sync should only incur 16ms of latency" either.

    Kenny Levinsen who is a Wayland person wrote about the post you quoted avis.
    Broken "vsync" behavior in games is unrelated to this discussion, and has lead to a lot of misunderstandings.
    Yes Wayland developers agree with me you quoted garbage avis.

    Wayland compositors(all of them) before the tearing protocol used Mailbox VSYNC this is important this does not have the problem Daniel Hill game engine example showed. Yes there is more than 1 way to implement vsync support.

    Last edited by oiaohm; 06 May 2024, 01:48 PM.


    • Originally posted by avis View Post

      [... strawmen ...]

      I'm an idi otto! I want to use XFCE! Please tell me what's the official way to enjoy XFCE with Wayland. And how many years before XFCE with Wayland is as usable as let's say KDE in 2024. Is there a timeline for this glorious future? I mean it must be today, no, last year, according to the vast majority of Wayland fans.
      Shouldn't you ask the XFCE devs that? And why would you like to have XFCE implement Wayland when you think it sucks?


      • Originally posted by Weasel View Post
        Cool, and every cloud provider with Nvidia GPUs uses Linux. You know, the guys which buy the overpriced GPUs and fed Nvidia this much in the first place.
        And almost none of them needs X11 or Wayland. Headless and Win based machines don't matter here. This is why Red Hat wants to drop X11 support.


        • Originally posted by Weasel View Post
          Because I'm not a masochist to use something that already proved you wrong and had insane latency and issues?

          I used it, was a complete failure, so did myself a favor and stopped. I'm not masochist like you.

          I test it once in a while to see if anything changed but of course it still won't allow me position windows with a script, LMAO. Sorry I'm mature enough to not need papa Wayland to tell me what I should do with my PC.
          Let me tell one more time.

          OK? Go away now. Use whatever shit you like.


          • Originally posted by access View Post

            Shouldn't you ask the XFCE devs that? And why would you like to have XFCE implement Wayland when you think it sucks?
            XFCE devs are not responsible for this:

            And the fact that Wayland compositors are not interchangeable and glued hard to their respective DEs which I've reported twice in this thread already.

            Amazing reading comprehension! Amazing logic! Amazing argumentation from Wayland fans.

            More like zero or negative.


            • Originally posted by Britoid View Post
              We need the latter for things such as HDR, hardware compositing (zero input lag), zero copy composition, tile renderers (popular in mobile GPUs).
              Then were is the benchmark proving that a Wayland environment has lower input lage than an X11 environment? Use the mouse-to-eye input latency tools that Linus and many others have access to these days. Where is the software that takes advantage of the GPU that runs way better on Wayland than X11?


              • Originally posted by moonwalker View Post

                Have you ever designed a computer/software system? If you did, you should know that your design determines what can and cannot be done to a much greater degree than anything else. You cannot modify what was designed as a school bus into a jet fighter, but you can turn a heavy bomber into a passenger airliner, though it's gonna be not a particularly good one, as passengers of Tu-114 can attest. Those are the result of design limitations. The same is applicable to security, and, again, if you ever been through a security review you'd know that before any code analysis and pen. tests security engineers will first look at design of the system, how the components interact, what data they handle, how is it processed, transmitted, and stored, where are the security boundaries, etc., because if the design is problematic then no matter how good you make your code you're just rearranging the deck chairs on Titanic. So yes, "security designed in from the start" is very much a technical argument.
                But what makes you think that I disagree that having a good design is paramount? In fact, I think a good design with as much support and dev time as Wayland - which was designed while X11 was within one's '20/20 hindsight'... Should have much better outcomes as compared with X11 by now! How is that not the case? Again, no evidence that security holes in X11 cannot be closed with X11 or other software.
                Last edited by deusexmachina; 06 May 2024, 05:57 PM.


                • Originally posted by avis View Post
                  I'm an idi otto!
                  Finally, some self-awareness.


                  • Originally posted by deusexmachina View Post
                    Again, no evidence that security holes in X11 cannot be closed
                    Nobody is obligated to provide this evidence to you personally.


                    • Originally posted by jacob View Post

                      Your post is a perfect example of why some of them deserve to be mocked and detested. How exactly does Wayland, systemd or XDG enforce digital right management? It doesn't and it couldn't if it tried, and you know it, but that doesn't stop you from spreading moronic conspiracy theories. You claim to want to service your own car yourself but instead of doing exactly that, to the contrary, you instead DEMAND that upstream Linux development accommodates you and makes life harder for itself because you say so. As far as car analogies go, you remind me of that fringe subculture among muscle car enthusiasts who "resist" against independent suspension and fuel injection because they "know" that it's part of a secret government plot to bring on communism, or whatever.
                      => How exactly does Wayland, systemd or XDG enforce digital right management?

                      Is the free-desktop repo system known to be open to contribution and debate, or authoritarian with respect to those things? Are Wayland & systemD more monolithic and major deps for getting any software that includes intellectual property to work on open source desktop systems?

                      You're doing what I described earlier as:
                      "Accuse your opponent of what you are doing, to create confusion and to inculcate voters against evidence of your own guilt" - Saul Alinsky​

                      I'm not demanding anyone do anything. We are clearly the ones not being compliant to other's demands that we change our views and our software dependencies. We aren't even demanding that you come to the same realization that something does not gel with respect to Wayland's track as a replacement for X11's spot across the many open source OSs that use it. The fact that not immediately complying inculcates me as a conspiracy theorist might just be projection from those who conspire!