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NetBSD On The State & Future Of X.Org/X11

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  • oiaohm

    The mouse cursor is draw on it own output planes independent to graphical output from applications. Those two items are merged by the GPU as it sent to the monitor.

    Yeah, in the final presented frame which means an extra frame latency. You try to disagree for the Nth time and just prove me right. Lovely.


    • Originally posted by WileEPyote View Post

      Devs do tend to congregate on major projects. Hive mind? No. Like minded? Yes.

      Yes, there's Arcan. What distros and DEs are making it a priority? The simple fact of the matter is that the large majority of distros and environments are focused on wayland implementation. I mean, if you want to use x11, nobody is stopping you, but that's not where the majority of dev time is being spent. That's just a simple fact.

      Again, it doesn't matter what you, me, or anyone else thinks. They devs in charge of the major products are who call the shots. Wayland has been chosen. As of this moment, Arcan is irrelevant, whether you like it or not. Maybe that will change, I don't know. But it hasn't yet.

      You're thinking in technicalities, and not practicalities.
      Obviously I'm talking about the future because X11 is in a good spot right now, whether you like it or not.

      I obviously can't predict perfectly what will happen in 10 years, but by that time I'm sure Arcan will be "ready", even if X11 dies.

      Originally posted by WileEPyote View Post
      Completely irrelevant. Most environments and distros are moving over to Wayland. It's functionality vs x11 doesn't matter in the slightest anymore. As of this moment, it's the future. Your opinion of it doesn't matter.
      Complete and utter bullshit. Do you fucking know what "most" means? It doesn't mean your pathetic GNOME, KDE and a couple others. That's like 3-4. There's probably tens out there, even if YOU consider them "irrelevant" it doesn't make it so. Legit couldn't care less about your opinion on what DE is "worth".

      Originally posted by WileEPyote View Post
      Again. Doesn't matter what you are about. Wayland is seeing active development, is not. These are just simple facts. There's nothing personal about it.
      "Active" development and can't even get basic features right. Who the fuck cares?

      X11 is far more complete than Wayland at this point so Wayland having active development means literally nothing.

      It also isn't that active, lol.

      Originally posted by WileEPyote View Post
      And nobody cares what you need, yet you feel the need to constantly tell everyone. Pot meet Kettle. It's pretty funny you don't see the irony in your posts.​
      I do and will continue to do it as long as at least 1 Wayland puppet makes a post about how it works for him.

      I don't give a flying fuck about your pathetic attemps at censorship, I know that's what you want. You know that Wayland sucks but want to hide all the negative facts about it and keep the good ones only, so it "seems" perfect.

      Well reality doesn't work that way because I'm here to burst your bubbles.

      Remember: if Wayland didn't suck, didn't lack essential features, wasn't such a crippled garbage toy, then I wouldn't have fuel to speak against it, would I? So think about it how to "solve" this the proper way.

      Cope harder.


      • Originally posted by Sevard View Post
        It doesn't matter. Money is in people and companies which use Linux, not in companies that make components.
        Cool, and every cloud provider with Nvidia GPUs uses Linux. You know, the guys which buy the overpriced GPUs and fed Nvidia this much in the first place.


        • Originally posted by mrg666 View Post
          There you go then, "Wayland works great". This is at least from someone who uses it. Not from a troll who does not even use it.

          And, there is no mouse latency, none. How would you know if you don't use it?
          Because I'm not a masochist to use something that already proved you wrong and had insane latency and issues?

          I used it, was a complete failure, so did myself a favor and stopped. I'm not masochist like you.

          I test it once in a while to see if anything changed but of course it still won't allow me position windows with a script, LMAO. Sorry I'm mature enough to not need papa Wayland to tell me what I should do with my PC.


          • Originally posted by avis View Post
            oiaohmYeah, in the final presented frame which means an extra frame latency. You try to disagree for the Nth time and just prove me right. Lovely.
            A plane is not a frame.

            Avis this is specialist fixed function code in the CRT part of the GPUs. This merge is processed every single output frame. Takes a fixed amount of time this is the vsync deadline.

            Avis with vsync you have when GPU cannot send any more data for output and when output happens this fixed amount of processing time is the plane merge by fixed function code.

            Final presentation frame only in fact exists to software after vsync is complete and it already been sent to monitor. There is a order of operations here.

            avis basically you have always been wrong in this point. When it comes to GPU there is a big difference between a plane and a frame.

            Avis planes is why you cannot have HDR mouse cursors because mouse cursors like it or not are 24 bit colour with 8 bit alpha and that a limit of planes..
            Last edited by oiaohm; 06 May 2024, 11:44 AM.


            • Originally posted by avis View Post

              you seem to be criticizing shitty implementations, not wayland. As there exist perfectly fine implementations that do exactly what you want ?!

              Are you just so blinded by your ideological rage that you don't see how everything just works in every camp that did not refuse to put one finger in front of another?

              Yes, i know it's sad that every 30 years the DE stack must be rewritten and not possible to stick with grandpa X any more. It's time to let go. Every few months we see new security vulnerabilities in X, while wayland has not in it's existence had as many as X in the past year.

              It's easy to have features when you don't give a shit about security. Can you understand how much better real mode OS were as they had more features than protected mode ones today? Damns, if only someone would port x to real mode !!!!
              Last edited by varikonniemi; 06 May 2024, 01:01 PM.


              • In your lengthy refutation I don't see how mouse cursor may exist outside of frames generated and sent to the GPU to render by the Wayland compositor.

                You know what, you could simply demonstrate that there's no extra latency by any means possible. I don't care about your insinuations and speculations, input latency is something that I learned from Wayland developers and I trust them more than your wall of texts, frames and planes. The monitor works with frames, sorry. Frames are generated by the GPU. Whatever "planes" (or other very intellectual words) exist there is inconsequential to this issue. You cannot push planes beside frames. This is not how the entire shebang works.

                Gemini, since I'm in a country where ChatGPT4 is not available:

                Does Wayland have a higher input latency than Xorg?

                The answer on Wayland's input latency compared to Xorg is a bit complex:
                • Theoretically: Wayland can be faster due to its simpler architecture. It removes a layer of communication between applications and the display.
                • Practically: There can be a perceived increase in latency for some users, especially in games. This is because Wayland often uses forced VSync to prevent screen tearing. VSync introduces a small delay to synchronize the frame rate with the display refresh rate.
                Here's a breakdown of factors affecting perceived latency:
                • Input routing latency: This is the time it takes for your input (mouse click, keypress) to be registered by the system. This is usually negligible on both Wayland and Xorg.
                • Presentation time: This is the time it takes for the display to show the result of your input on screen. VSync in Wayland can increase this time slightly.
                While some users report feeling more lag with Wayland, it's important to consider:
                • The difference might be minimal for most users and tasks.
                • Some desktops on Wayland offer options to reduce latency at the cost of potential screen tearing.
                Overall, Wayland is actively being developed to improve latency. If you prioritize responsiveness in fast-paced games, Xorg might still be preferable. But for everyday use, Wayland's advantages in security and smoothness might outweigh the potential for slightly higher latency.
                "Slightly" could be as much as 33ms on a 30Hz monitor.


                • Originally posted by avis View Post
                  Post instant delete using AI.
                  I do not read posts with AI avis because that makes stuff up.


                  • Prolly people would love some quotations, right? Welcome!

                    I just want to clarify that the practical latency increase of vsync is far far worse than assumptions presented by most engineers.

                    In theory v-sync should only incur 16ms of latency but in practice you can see 32-60ms increase because of engine design and timing of sampling of inputs.

                    In this video you can see that a video game running at 60fps verses one running at 59fps and how the video present chain can cause what I guess is bufferbloat issues.

                    A low-latency v-sync on compositor will need to be very very careful about how it presents frames.
                    An up to 60ms extra latency for a 60Hz monitor. Wayland shines!

                    But planes! Planes have certainly saved the world.


                    • Dear varikonniemi

                      Please read my first message in this thread and enlighten me which Wayland implementations are endorsed and OK to use and why as a user I should even care what compositor I'm using? Every Wayland proponent here has claimed to no end that anything Wayland based is 1) 100% functional 2) better than Xorg.

                      Not only it's not 100% functional even in Mutter as KWin implements more Wayland specs than Mutter, it's outright horrible in all other Wayland compositors.

                      I'm an idi otto! I want to use XFCE! Please tell me what's the official way to enjoy XFCE with Wayland. And how many years before XFCE with Wayland is as usable as let's say KDE in 2024. Is there a timeline for this glorious future? I mean it must be today, no, last year, according to the vast majority of Wayland fans.