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NetBSD On The State & Future Of X.Org/X11

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  • Originally posted by avis View Post

    XFCE devs are not responsible for this: https://gitlab.freedesktop.org/wayla...d/-/issues/233

    And the fact that Wayland compositors are not interchangeable and glued hard to their respective DEs which I've reported twice in this thread already.

    Amazing reading comprehension! Amazing logic! Amazing argumentation from Wayland fans.

    More like zero or negative.
    Well, that doesn't affect you as you only want to run Xorg/X11 and XFCE already runs on X11. Sounds like you're all set.

    Comment


    • Originally posted by deusexmachina View Post

      But what makes you think that I disagree that having a good design is paramount? In fact, I think a good design with as much support and dev time as Wayland. That was designed with X11 in 20/20 hindsight... Should have much better outcomes as compared with X11 by now! How is that not the case? Again, no evidence that security holes in X11 cannot be closed with X11 or other software.
      Xorg's insecurity has not been implicated in a single security incident so far. Think about it: 35 years in use and not a single one. Probably, just probably, this "argument" is irrelevant.

      X11 has other critical issues (scalability, threading, deep color and proper multimonitor support) but Wayland fans are not tech-savvy enough to even understand them.

      The problem is Wayland looks like it was royally misdesigned. How come Vista came out and was in a much better shape from the get go (yeah, more than 5 years in development but Wayland has been in development for over 15)?

      Wayland should have never been this fragmented, it should have offered an Xorg server alternative from the get go, so that everyone could start hacking for it, instead people started hacking individual Wayland servers and software for them. We've literally wasted years of development time. I go back to Wayfire every year and come away completely dissatisfied. IceWM was in a better shape in just a few years and it had a single developer. There's a small team behind Wayfire and they have been struggling hard to deliver.

      This is just terribly sad. "All fine", according to KWin/Mutter users though Mutter users don't have the guts to admit that Mutter is in bad shape in terms of Wayland features.

      Comment


      • Originally posted by jacob View Post

        The first item on the list, MacOS, is a very strange argument in this context. It's kernel is not UNIX, its graphics stack has nothing to do with X11 and is in fact the main source of inspiration for Wayland, and it has launchd, which inspired systemd. Sure, if you open a terminal window you have zsh and the BSD shell utilities. You can also have the exact same thing on Windows, OpenVMS and more. Bashing Linux for not being UNIX because it had turned its back on shell scripts and X11, while simultaneously claiming that MacOS shows that UNIX is still relevant, that is really disingenuous.

        The rest of the list features HP/UX, AIX and even UnixWare. How many new deployments of these things are there? I don't know who wants to have that as a desktop machine today but if someone does, it's as a retro computing hobby. I'll definitely pass, thank you very much.
        This ! This is precisely why Linux has left BSD and Unix behind both in Server Land and particularly Regular User Land. It is quite obvious from the very founding of Gnome through the creation of driverless printing to systemd and Wayland and Vulkan and Pipewire and more that Apple and MacOS have been, just like they have for Microsoft and Windows since v3.0, practically the Research and Development Department for Linux. MacOS has at the very least certainly been the thought leader for Linux as a whole and in particular Ubuntu. And that is a great thing for the future of Linux.

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        • Originally posted by access View Post

          Well, that doesn't affect you as you only want to run Xorg/X11 and XFCE already runs on X11. Sounds like you're all set.
          I want to run XFCE and I don't give a damn what's underneath as long as it works. If Microsoft releases WDDM for Linux tomorrow as open source and it's gonna work as well as or better than X11 does (and it will as it's miles better than anything Linux has had, Linux with Wayland looks like it's straight from 1995), I will use it gladly. I never said I disliked Wayland but I totally hate how it's been implemented.

          Comment


          • Originally posted by krzyzowiec View Post

            Much higher? Based on what? I'm playing games right now on a 144 fps monitor and I don't notice any significant latency. I do notice the smooth, perfect frames though.
            "Pefrect frames" in games is more about Freesync not V-Sync. But Freesync monitors have their own problems, especially on loading screens and without LFC my VA 144hz monitor starts flickering because of the big framerate jumps between 48hz and 90-144hz.

            This problem can be partially eliminated by increasing the minimum frequency in the monitor's EDID.

            Comment


            • Originally posted by ezst036 View Post

              X is also fragmented as well, as you have been reminded of many, many times.

              You simply don't listen and repeat the same debunked nonsense.
              Wow I totally agree with what you are saying

              Comment


              • Originally posted by avis View Post

                The future which is fragmented as hell and which is not the same for its users. I don't want this future. I want to use anything which offers Wayland and enjoy all the features of the protocol. At the moment there's just one (!) full-featured Wayland implementation (for the current state of the protocol which still lacks a ton of crucial features including absolute window positioning) and that's KWin. And don't BS me with "it will all come in time", it has not in 15 years and it will not considering how much resources a complete implementation requires.

                Of course, now this message will receive a handful of replies "It work for me with this godforsaken Wayland manager". I don't bloody care that "it works for you". Lots of gifted Linux users use console, your anecdotal evidence is anecdotal. When people open Windows/MacOS, they don't start Googling "why this or that feature doesn't work?", they just use it. With Wayland? Use KWin or get bloody wrecked.

                So much for your inevitable future.
                wayland pfft we dun need that x is king been there from start kwin aint the only one i say let ppls choose what works heck bsd is bsd for rock solid not some wayland future talk migration haha as if legacy systems work just fine no need to fix what aint broke

                Comment


                • ezst036

                  Reminded me of what? That you you can lie through your teeth? In the 90s and 00s we had XFree86, then it was Xorg, the same freaking X11 server for all Linux distros.

                  Have I missed something? Some obscure X11 servers used by a full dozen of people in the entire world? Wayland proponents are not averse to making stuff up just to make Wayland look less shittier than it is. First, Xorg's "insecurity", then Xorg's "fragmentation". Is this a circus, are you clowns, comedians or what?

                  Originally posted by AlanTuring69 View Post

                  Wow I totally agree with what you are saying
                  Totally agreed with first class horseshit? Great, take a cookie!
                  Last edited by avis; 06 May 2024, 07:10 PM.

                  Comment


                  • Originally posted by avis View Post
                    ezst036

                    Reminded me of what? That you you can lie through your teeth? In the 90s and 00s we had XFree86, then it was Xorg, the same freaking X11 server for all Linux distros.

                    Have I missed something? Some obscure X11 servers used by a full dozen of people in the entire world? Wayland proponents are not averse to making stuff up just to make Wayland look less shittier than it is. First, Xorg's "insecurity", then Xorg's "fragmentation". Is this a circus, are you clowns, comedians or what?



                    Totally agreed with first class horseshit? Great, take a cookie!


                    this you lol:

                    eat ur own cookie
                    Last edited by AlanTuring69; 06 May 2024, 10:07 PM.

                    Comment


                    • Originally posted by avis View Post
                      Xorg's insecurity has not been implicated in a single security incident so far. Think about it: 35 years in use and not a single one. Probably, just probably, this "argument" is irrelevant.
                      Yep, I was not one of those who has implicated X11 as being impossible-to-secure.

                      Comment

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