New Linux Kernel Patches Begin Plumbing Rust Support Into Bcachefs Driver

[mdedetrich]

Any computing platform that is fast enough for it to even make sense to use bcachefs already has rustc support anyway... basically ARM / Power / x86 / RISC-V what other architecture are you seriously going to run it on?

I want bcachefs on my toaster and I want it now

[jacob]

I want bcachefs on my toaster and I want it now

Hmmm... duplicate the slice of bread, toast it and leave the original one intact. That's an interesting idea.

[kpedersen]

Aha, another "founded" prediction fromkpedersen who, so far, managed to be wrong about... basically everything. And yeah, "the industry" is certainly keeping its distance with rust. Well except Linux, Microsoft, Google, Apple, Meta, Cloudflare, NASA, apparently soon FreeBSD and other equally irrelevant entities.

Noisy Rust boy is noisy.

https://lists.freebsd.org/archives/freebsd-hackers/2024-January/002830.html

... so it turns out, just like everyone else, they realise that Rust is all noise and no bite.
Keep going. In a decade you might get bored and just stick with C or C++ like the rest of the industry such as Linux, Microsoft, Google, Apple, Meta, Cloudflare, NASA, FreeBSD, Oracle, IBM, Amazon, Samsung, NVidia, Tesla, Tencent, Adobe, AMD, Netflix, SAP, Cisco, Intel and everyone else.

Y'know, its been a while now... Wayland still has only one viable standalone compositor (Sway) and still hasn't made *any* strides to wean itself off XWayland, Rust is still niche... my future projections are actually holding pretty strong. We are going to be retired and you will still be in denial about my predictions haha!

[jacob]

Noisy Rust boy is noisy.

https://lists.freebsd.org/archives/freebsd-hackers/2024-January/002830.html

... so it turns out, just like everyone else, they realise that Rust is all noise and no bite.

Ah yes. One random dude posted a personal opinion in a forum. That changes everything.

Keep going. In a decade you might get bored and just stick with C or C++ like the rest of the industry such as Linux, Microsoft, Google, Apple, Meta, Cloudflare, NASA, FreeBSD, Oracle, IBM, Amazon, Samsung, NVidia, Tesla, Tencent, Adobe, AMD, Netflix, SAP, Cisco, Intel and everyone else.

So pretty much every single of these entities except, to my knowledge, SAP and Adobe, is already more or less heavily invested in Rust.

Y'know, its been a while now... Wayland still has only one viable standalone compositor (Sway) and still hasn't made *any* strides to wean itself off XWayland, Rust is still niche... my future projections are actually holding pretty strong. We are going to be retired and you will still be in denial about my predictions haha!

I get that it's not your fault that you are a particularly severe case of the Denning Krueger syndrome, but magical thinking is not a solution. Wayland is now the default in Fedora, Ubuntu and their derivatives, which make up the absolute majority of Linux GUI installations. Future versions of GNOME will in fact NOT work without Wayland at all and yes, that's just GNOME, but again, it's the majority. Your prediction was that Wayland would be dead by 2015. In fact unless someone steps up to take over the maintenance, it's X that will be dead in 2025.

Another of your predictions was that systemd would vanish in 2014. Well technically there are still non-systemd distros with some signs of life, like devuan, so although you were comprehensively wrong about it as always, at least there is some saving grace for you this time.

As for Rust, you have been pushing the goalposts for some time. Your original prediction was that it was a "fad" that would be all but forgotten in 2012. Today anyone running Windows, Android, Firefox, GNOME or anything based on RSVG or GStreamer or who drives a Tesla or accesses some website through Cloudflare is relying on non-optional, core Rust code. If you want to be credible, maybe try to predict that Rust would be gone by the time the Sun dies, although I'm sure you will find a way to be hilariously incorrect even about that.

[kpedersen]

Another of your predictions was that systemd would vanish in 2014

Indeed. And still, many years later, the most common distro in use today by proxy of Docker/Alpine is non-systemd. Only Red Hat is really pushing systemd these days. Once they have closed up enough to lose favour, thats its last remnants, gone.

Its been great for FreeBSD though. User numbers have never been higher since Linux started becoming less UNIX-like.

Your prediction was that Wayland would be dead by 2015.

Wayland was stillborn. It was barely alive before 2015 in the first place. It is talked about, but everyone is *still* using X11 programs almost 10 years later... You realize we are having this same discussion almost 10 years after 2015 and Wayland has made almost no progress since. How long are you holding on for? Another 10 years? 20? 30? A careers length?

In fact unless someone steps up to take over the maintenance, it's X that will be dead in 2025

I wonder how the repo magically has updates and security fixes then if no-one has stepped up to do that. Spooky!
Xorg has more maintainers now than any individual Wayland compositor. 2025 is coming up soon and the ecosystem is almost identical to 2015 isn't it? Completely stagnated, waiting for a dream of Wayland to never actually happen. Its actually a little tragic.

Rust [...] Rust [...] Rust

Your mention of Apple, referring to one experimental Rust project (later debunked by an ex-Apple engineer) being "heavily invested" did make me chuckle.

I'm going to leave you to the rest of your Rust noise...

[jacob]

Indeed. And still, many years later, the most common distro in use today by proxy of Docker/Alpine is non-systemd.

This is comedy gold. systemd is gone because it's not used in docker containers, which run a service directly and don't use a service manager or, indeed, even any init process at all. Next insight by our resident genius kpedersen: runways are a dead fad because cyclists don't use them.

Now tell me, Einstein: what are those Alpine-based, non-systemd containers deployed on? I'm afraid it's not Slackware nor *BSD.

Void linux is doing great and frankly, FreeBSD has never seen such an influx of users since systemd appeared.

The mythical exodus of Linux users to FreeBSD. It was long anticipated to happen because of the GPL licence, then because of ZFS, then because of Wayland, then because of systemd, now because of Rust, and... yes, there is an influx of users to FreeBSD. It may even register at some decimal place of the percentage of new users Linux distros are gaining in the meantime. And I'm sure there are many critical deployments of void Linux outside of the hobbysphere. Cite some if you can. The point is, no one gives a damn about what you use for your home NAS toy. It's what's running the Googles and Facebooks of this world that matters.

Once Red Hat has run its course and closed up enough to lose favour, then systemd is officially gone.

Well there will still be Debian, Ubuntu, Suse and Arch and many others using it, but never mind that. If your worldview is based on the idea that Red Hat will close up next Monday and the world will move to kisslinux and freebsd instead, no wonder you're so frustrated. I'm really sorry to break it to you, by the way, but systemd is not a RedHat inhouse project and if Red Hat disappeared, systemd would not be affected by it.

Wayland was stillborn. It was barely alive before 2015 in the first place.

In 2015 it was in use in some car entertainment systems. Today it's the default on the Linux distros. Your prediction was a total dud, buddy, as always.

I wonder how the repo magically has updates and security fixes then if no-one has stepped up to do that. Spooky!
Xorg has more maintainers now than any individual Wayland compositor. Especially so in 2025 when the scope of Wayland compositors have caused them all to bitrot.

Because so far the Red Hat you hate (yes, it's really them this time) maintains the Xorg repo because it's still part of their supported product. When the support runs out, they will stop maintaining it, as they announced (except for XWayland), and either someone new comes in, or it will be dead. It's more likely to be dead, because people like you are good at playing "knowledgeable" in areas they barely understand, but not at doing some actual heavy lifting.

Your mention of Apple, referring to one experimental Rust project (later debunked by an ex-Apple engineer) being "heavily invested" did make me chuckle.

I'm going to leave you to the rest of your Rust noise...

Apple uses Rust in some of its cloud services and, reportedly, in some VR projects. Your problem is that you believe that programming languages are religions, not means to some ends. You can for example adopt Rust for one thing and use Swift for another one, all the while further developing some legacy codebase in C++, depending on what the requirements and optimal tradeoffs are. That's what sensible engineers do.

[kpedersen]

systemd is gone because it's not used in docker containers, which run a service directly and don't use a service manager or, indeed, even any init process at all.

So you are denying that Alpine uses OpenRC? Alpine doesn't have an init system? What weak kind of weak rebuttable is that?

Just try repeating after me... "The most common distro on the planet, doesn't use systemd".

Now tell me, Einstein: what are those Alpine-based, non-systemd containers deployed on? I'm afraid it's not Slackware nor *BSD.

It could run on anything that is or virtualizes Linux (Alpine, WSL2/WHPX, Apple/Xhyve, etc), Does that suddenly mean that Alpine and its millions of instances uses systemd? Is that what you are trying to get at? No, would be the answer to that.

Weak.

GPL licence, [...] ZFS, [...] Wayland,[...] Systemd, [...] Rust,

Err, exactly. So many great reasons why people migrate to FreeBSD. You don't need to list them all. I am already very much a fan of FreeBSD.

It's what's running the Googles and Facebooks of this world that matters.

Yes! ... and NetFlixs.

Indeed. Not these stupid bargain bin LAMPs that are clogging up the ecosystem.

Well there will still be Debian, Ubuntu, Suse and Arch and many others using it, but never mind that. If your worldview is based on the idea that Red Hat will close up next Monday

You pretty much hit the nail on the head with this statement. Once Red Hat closes shop, that is really the only thing attempting to keep systemd in place. So those other projects (who all have sysvinit in packages) will just keep with that once the noise and marketing from Red Hat subsides.

We all know that the only open-source projects that tend to truly die are ones controlled by commercial entities.

In 2015 it was in use in some car entertainment systems. Today it's the default on the Linux distros. Your prediction was a total dud, buddy, as always.

"Default" and "Linux" are mutually exclusive. There is no standard base. So you are basically being a little bit full of crap there.

Because so far the Red Hat you hate (yes, it's really them this time) maintains the Xorg repo

Wrong again kiddo. Maintained by a heap of people. Oracle and Matthieu (OpenBSD) are good contributors
One commit a month ago was from a Google employee along with a NetBSD developer.

Sorry to put a dent in your fantasy that Linux == RedHat

Your problem is that you believe that programming languages are religions, not means to some ends.

That sounds a bit defeatist. If C isn't a religion... why is it everywhere then?

Rust is more of a cult. Lead by a small number of very noisy people.

[jacob]

So you are denying that Alpine uses OpenRC? Alpine doesn't have an init system? What weak kind of weak rebuttable is that?

Alpine uses OpenRC but the docker use case, that you brought up, doesn't. How many non-container, infrastructure-level installation of Alpine-with-OpenRC are there in production? Duh.

It could run on anything that is or virtualizes Linux (Alpine, WSL2/WHPX, Apple/Xhyve, etc), Does that suddenly mean that Alpine and its millions of instances uses systemd? Is that what you are trying to get at? No, would be the answer to that.

It "could", more or less, but it doesn't. In practice, containers run on RH, some on Debian and that's basically it. WSL2 is used for development, and it typicall runs Ubuntu (with systemd, waaah waaah), on which they then run a container. There are indeed millions of Alpine instances, and next to none of them actually run OpenRC or anything similar at all.

Err, exactly. So many great reasons why people migrate to FreeBSD. You don't need to list them all. I am already very much a fan of FreeBSD.

So many great reasons and yet the long heralded downfall of Linux is nowhere to be seen. How disappointing.

Yes! ... and NetFlixs.

Indeed. Not these stupid bargain bin LAMPs that are clogging up the ecosystem.

Netflix uses - wait for it - Python, not C nor C++, as its primary programming language. Another truth you will need to deal with somehow. It also runs all its infrastructure on Linux, hosted on Linux-based AWS. Yes their OCA appliance uses FreeBSD. Don't worry, there is no risk of forgetting that, since it's close to be the one and only thing that runs on FreeBSD and people like you will remind everyone every day.

You pretty much hit the nail on the head with this statement. Once Red Hat closes shop, that is really the only thing attempting to keep systemd in place. So those other projects (who all have sysvinit in packages) will just keep with that once the noise and marketing from Red Hat subsides.

I knew you were clueless about computer science or even simply about mere programming, I didn't know you struggled to read. My point was precisely that systemd does NOT depend on Red Hat.

"Default" and "Linux" are mutually exclusive. There is no standard base. So you are basically being a little bit full of crap there.

You know, there is a difference between prattle that passes as a "competent" opinion on HN or Slashdot, and the reality in the industry. In the real world, organisations that don't directly develop their own tailored infrastructure, like Google or MS, all rely on third party commercial support, which means RH, SUSE, Canonical and the like. No-one who actually matters runs Void linux with a self-compiled kernel, runit manually replaced with s6, and a combination of dwm and xfce4-terminal.

Wrong again kiddo. Maintained by a heap of people. Oracle and Matthieu (OpenBSD) are good contributors
One commit a month ago was from a Google employee along with a NetBSD developer.

Sorry to put a dent in your fantasy that Linux == RedHat

Then why are those exact people you mentioned voicing their concerns about what will happen when RH cuts off support?

That sounds a bit defeatist. If C isn't a religion... why is it everywhere then?

Rust is more of a cult. Lead by a small number of very noisy people.

It appears that C is no longer everywhere, Rust is getting to places where C used to have a monopoly. Isn't that precisely what's driving you nuts?

[mdedetrich]

Hmmm... duplicate the slice of bread, toast it and leave the original one intact. That's an interesting idea.

I think you may be onto something Watson.

[Myownfriend]

Wayland was stillborn. It was barely alive before 2015 in the first place. It is talked about, but everyone is *still* using X11 programs almost 10 years later... You realize we are having this same discussion almost 10 years after 2015 and Wayland has made almost no progress since. How long are you holding on for? Another 10 years? 20? 30? A careers length?

Wayland has seen a lot of progress in just the last three years.

• I couldn't run a Wayland session with hardware accelerated XWayland back then. I know run Wayland daily and haven't had to go back to X11 for any reason in like 2 years. Blender didn't natively support Wayland back then, now it does.
• Electron didn't natively support Wayland back then, now it does.
• OBS didn't natively support Wayland and it didn't have a way to capture things on Wayland anyway. Now it support Wayland, it supports portals, and now portals moving towards replacing it's whole Linux capture backend.
• Raspberry Pi OS was running X11 with no optional support for Wayland, now it runs a Wayland session on LXDE by default.
• Cinnamon has zero work towards Wayland support, now it has initial Wayland support.
• I don't think Hyprland even existed back then. Now it does.
• The following features were added to the protocol
  • wp-fractional-scale-v1
  • tearing-control-v1
  • security-contexts-v1
  • ext-transient-seat
  • ext-foreign-toplevel-list
  • xwayland_shell_v1
  • xdg_activation
  • ext-session-lock-v1
  • xdg-toplevel-drag

If your only engagement with Wayland is discussions where you're shitting on it then obviously you're not going to see any improvements.