Debian Still Debating Systemd vs. Upstart Init System

[GreatEmerald]

Last bit from Ian Jackson:

It seems unlikely
that there would be a majority in the TC for picking systemd, and
separately a majority in the TC for overruling the systemd maintainers'
refusal to implement a simpler readiness protocol.

So a decision to pick systemd automatically comes with the expectation
that all daemons will get the new build- and runtime dependencies, and
maintainers will be expected to accept those patches.

Isn't it shameful? There are still 4 TC members (Keith Parckard, Bdale Garbee, Don Armstrong, Andreas Barth) that must share their choice, but the guy is already saying that
systemd will not not be picked.

Huh. And that's not even true, the "simpler readiness protocol" is a really bad idea, especially if implemented downstream (which has been discussed extensively already), and no daemons need to get patched with systemd dependencies, either (unit files are largely cross-distro, and systemd on Debian already works right now, it's just not default).

[corebob]

there should be a third option the multiplataform is very important
i really don't trust in red hat or cannonical, red hat just wants beta testers and cannonical just cares about the smartphones
Debian should drop support to gnome and use lxde or xfce, because gnome 3 "depends" of systemd.

I have to agree with this.

Debians independence from any one company is worth its weight in gold. Don't mess with that.
Any init system that doesn't comply with the Debian policies and guidelines should automagically disqualify.
Also, having a upstream distro pulling from downstream would be the wrong thing to do.

I kind of like systemd myself, but the most important thing is that Debian sticks to their principals and stays independent.

[vbtux]

I have to agree with this.

Debians independence from any one company is worth its weight in gold. Don't mess with that.
Any init system that doesn't comply with the Debian policies and guidelines should automagically disqualify.
Also, having a upstream distro pulling from downstream would be the wrong thing to do.

I kind of like systemd myself, but the most important thing is that Debian sticks to their principals and stays independent.

So that means we should drop nearly all the core stack? By the way there is nothing in our constitution that prevent us from using a software because it is backed by a company.
Therefore your comment makes no sense!

[GreatEmerald]

I have to agree with this.

Debians independence from any one company is worth its weight in gold. Don't mess with that.
Any init system that doesn't comply with the Debian policies and guidelines should automagically disqualify.
Also, having a upstream distro pulling from downstream would be the wrong thing to do.

I kind of like systemd myself, but the most important thing is that Debian sticks to their principals and stays independent.

Both of the options don't interfere with the policies (Upstart modification goes through patches, so they're not affected by CLA). And how does adopting systemd make them not independent? It's used by all major distributions except for Ubuntu and Gentoo. Also, not using systemd's logind makes no sense, because they'd have to drop GNOME and alienate a large portion of their users. Not to mention that all other init systems are vastly inferior. A third option is simply not an option.

[corebob]

So that means we should drop nearly all the core stack? By the way there is nothing in our constitution that prevent us from using a software because it is backed by a company.
Therefore your comment makes no sense!

Comments usually doesn't make sense if you are unable to interprate them correctly.

There is nothing controversial about my comment if you think about it. I'm not the only one that appreciates Debians independence of companies. If you read up on the US laws that companies (have to) operate under, you might even understand why.

Also, I didn't say a project can't be _backed_ by a company

[Brane215]

This systemd fiasco just keeps getting better and better!

15 year old Linux kiddies babbling about systemd and 'technical superiority' - you just can't make crap like this up. Priceless!

These posts are going to be hilarious to read when time comes for the Linux 'braintrust' to rip out the systemd garbage down the road with cries of how did we let this happen?!?

Could you elaborate on that ? What exactly is so crappy in systemd ?

I've installed it on gentoo a few days ago and am just making my way through the documentation.

From what I have seen, I like it far more than openrc etc. I plan to do some work on my server and use it there also, in combo with dracut ( initrd).

[zester]

My predictions for this year.

1. Kdbus doesn't get merged this year - To much controversy and unknowns.

If you don't want to use kdbus, don't, no one is forcing you to at all. If/when it gets merged into the kernel tree, just disable it and you will be fine. Unless you rely on systemd, then you might wish to take a look at it and why it is being created (hint, see the linux.conf.au talk on it next month for all the details.)

So kdbus hasn't been accepted yet into mainline, and I don't think it will be.



2. Systemd will not reach critical mass amongst the other distros- It's complex, bloated and has far to many dependence's.

If debian goes with anything other than Systemd, then its over for Systemd in general, Ubuntu and Debian hold the vast amount
of Linux users. And as of right now its not looking like Systemd is going to get the votes it needs.

[Brane215]

2. Systemd will not reach critical mass amongst the other distros- It's complex, bloated and has far to many dependence's.

Where do you see that complexity & bloat ?

I see it as quite lean solution.

[zester]

I hate that we can't edit our comments after a page refresh!!!! Grrr

Anyways none of this matters to me, I am integrating Luajit into my Runit fork so I can script my run scripts in Lua
and call external C functions and use C data structures via the Luajit FFI library.

Lightweight, works on everything no Dependence's. Problem Solved.

[vbtux]

Comments usually doesn't make sense if you are unable to interprate them correctly.

There is nothing controversial about my comment if you think about it. I'm not the only one that appreciates Debians independence of companies. If you read up on the US laws that companies (have to) operate under, you might even understand why.

Also, I didn't say a project can't be _backed_ by a company

First I reread my comment and I found that it sound harsh. Sorry for that!

Also I'm a Debian developer, its independence was (and still is), among other things, the most valuable "feature" when I chose this Linux distro ≅10 years ago, but you must admit that the whole Linux world has changed.
It is clearly impossible to run a serious Linux distro today without packaging pieces of code backed by one (or more) big company (especially in core stuff), so to me it is clear that we (Debian) are not fully independent toward those
companies?