Debian Still Debating Systemd vs. Upstart Init System

[Guest]

there should be a third option the multiplataform is very important
i really don't trust in red hat or cannonical, red hat just wants beta testers and cannonical just cares about the smartphones
Debian should drop support to gnome and use lxde or xfce, because gnome 3 "depends" of systemd.

No, multiplatform isn't important at all. Debian should just drop kfreebsd and switch to systemd which is technicaly better than upstart. They should switch to KDE as well and your problem is solved. I wonder who was such stupid to support kfreebsd in Debian? It was their biggest mistake.

[GreatEmerald]

Yea, looks like systemd has all the technical reasons, while Upstart has the two main points of "it's slightly more cross-platform" and "Debian would send a message that they like diversity". So all in all it seems to boil down to two axes of priorities: developers and specialisation vs generalisation. Upstart means trusting Canonical and supporting the lower common denominator, while systemd means trusting the systemd developers and making it harder for the ports in return for much better features on the main platform.

From what I read, systemd neatly solves all my complaints about OpenRC, and then some. I'm looking forward to try it on my systems once gentoo integration has matured enough.

It has matured enough already. I've been using systemd on Gentoo for around a year now, and it's working flawlessly. The only issue that you can get is the lack of service files, but then you just need to report that as a bug and it should be solved (and then in the mean while you can use a service file from another distribution or look for it in upstream repositories).

[valeriodean]

Yea, looks like systemd has all the technical reasons, while Upstart has the two main points of "it's slightly more cross-platform" and "Debian would send a message that they like diversity".

It seems to be exactly in that way and, to me, it is absurd.
I mean, a Tecnical Commitee should take decisions about tecnical merit, not because they think to send some messages here and there, maybe they are changed themselves in Pubblic Relation Commitee?

Let me quote a passage of Josh Triplett

I think you're underestimating the amount of *ongoing* effort required
here. I'd point out that systemd in Debian is still stuck at version
204, despite the very nice features available in 205 and newer,
specifically because logind dared to make use of those features. I
fully expect systemd to continue producing new and interesting features
and *using* them, requiring alternative implementations to either
reimplement more of systemd or create an increasingly invasive fork of
it. And while I think it's *possible* to continue doing so on an
ongoing basis, that's work that could be spent on other productive tasks
that don't involve reimplementation.

[eidolon]

I hope that a choice is made for technical reasons (i.e. that a given solution best suits Debian's technical needs), and not for political reasons (such as to attempt to keep another solution from becoming dominant). I'm not suggesting that the layman, onlooking discussion surrounding this bears any indication of the human natures of the members of the technical committee, but much of the layman discussion going on various places has been political. I also hope that a one-size-fits-all solution isn't attempted to be hammered into place, unless one size truly best fits all. If the maintenance cost can be borne, I hope they choose what is best for Debian GNU/Linux, Debian GNU/kFreeBSD, and Debian GNU/Hurd, considered individually, rather than the lowest common denominator. For the Debian Project, Linux is by far the most used of the three, followed by kFreeBSD, and then Hurd.

The Debian Project is not the community arm of any company, and I think any committee member of Debian Project should recuse themselves as a matter of clearly defined, predetermined policy when tight conflict of interest arises. This doesn't mean that committee members of the Debian Project are any more conflicted or less professional than others, it's just good form for any independent organization. When a conflict of interest is so apparent that some organizational members feel obligated to give the typical 'we have a handle on it' - 'we rise above conflict of interest' speech, that's a red flag.

[Loranga]

How likely is a fork (or two) of Debian? Official or unofficial.
(I mean, not all decisions can be taken in a political environment.)

[BeardedGNUFreak]

This systemd fiasco just keeps getting better and better!

15 year old Linux kiddies babbling about systemd and 'technical superiority' - you just can't make crap like this up. Priceless!

These posts are going to be hilarious to read when time comes for the Linux 'braintrust' to rip out the systemd garbage down the road with cries of how did we let this happen?!?

[rohcQaH]

This systemd fiasco just keeps getting better and better!

Ok, so obviously you have a pretty strong opinion. Unfortunately, you didn't actually try using arguments. Can you elaborate why systemd is a poor choice, and in which points Upstart or OpenRC are better?

Avoid using words like "Lennart Poettering", "NIH" and anything else that isn't related to technical design.

[RahulSundaram]

@RahulSundaram:
You might try mentioning slightly more relevant details like two TC members being involved in upstart development.

Also, may I ask what your proposed _full_ solution is?
(I mean init systems and systemd packaging on all three kernels.)

I see no reason to ignore Hurd if you are going to support a port to FreeBSD. I find all the details I mention relevant. You get to pick what is important to you. As far as Debian is concerned, Russ's proposal makes the most sense to me

[dee.]

If Debian refuses systemd, there is no point for me to install it.

If they adapt Upstart, they have to sign Canonical's CLA, if they want to change it even bit.

Nope, only if they want to upstream those changes.

[dee.]

Debian is not a woman - it should not try to please everyone, who are in disagreement due to own features, because this way it will just weaken everyone.
Debian should do it as man and give everyone conflicting own playroom,

Have you ever actually met a woman?