Jonathan Carter Re-Elected As Debian Project Leader

[reavertm]

reavertm He cares about the desktop.

Debian and desktop in one sentence?

[ThoreauHD]

I don't know who this guy is, except that I recall that he didn't want the job. As far as Stallman talking about the age of consent being kids wetting the bed, isn't that the claim to fame of most people in California? It's too bad that consent never applies to their tax free outsourced labor force.

[arQon]

You can't throw money towards bigotry and expect things to get better.

I agree with pretty much everything in that post: the only piece I'd object to is the GNOME aspect - I think that's less a "diversity" issue than a combination of cultism and Dunning-Kruger. Although the end result is the same blinkered "Ours is the one true way", the path to get there is very different. I actually find the second case more worrying, since deliberate exclusion / rejection of alternative viewpoints is much more resilient in its biases than the "unintentional" ones that come from social monoculture. Still, that's getting a bit too far into the philosophical for a Sunday.

I think Debian has clearly made the right call on the DPL, since Social Justice doesn't actually get any work done.
If she is "personally aware of instances where the diversity budget expenditure did bad instead of any good", I would hope that actually bringing those up, either within the project or publicly, would shine enough light on the issue for Debian to do something about it: she doesn't need to be DPL for that, and the near-total absence of any strategy or plan FOR the project other than a nebulous "Diversity" is not a good platform *for this role*.
Social problems need social solutions, and with there being no hint of any sort of actual discrimination within the project itself it's in no way beneficial for the project to abandon its explicit responsibilities in the name of trying to somehow fix an inequity that doesn't exist. (Especially not with a "plan" that also doesn't exist in any form beyond a handwavy "make the result closer to what I want it to be").

I think a "witch hunt" vote would have been a better outcome for the second topic, but the "no comment" outcome there is the more typically-Debian result. I am slightly concerned that it's a bit of a "The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing" scenario, since the attackers can smell blood in the water, but like I say it's an in-character vote for the project, at least.

[60Hz]

To an extent. If you went to a cookout with 30 people and all there was were 50 cheap hot dogs you'd be a little upset. No buns, just 50 cheap dogs. Perhaps if the host threw in a 6 polish sausages and an 8 pack of buns it would be a bit better; would still suck if you're not one of the 5 who got a bun or a good sausage cause you just know two or three people will be selfish grab two buns.

Are you off your meds again?

[Morty]

Their total population is 1,390,885,000 with approximately 359,802,209 women between 15-64. They have more women in that age group than America has people.

In light of that, only 1 in 359,802,209 Indian women being involved with Debian doesn't seem even the slightest bit odd to you? In a country renowned for using computers and being tech support, only one woman is involved in Debian. That isn't odd at all to you?

Not adequate information to say if it's odd or not. But kind of odd that someone thinks so and try to make an conclusion based on the lack of information.

First, how many Indian men are involved with Debian?

Then, what is the male-female ratio in IT/programing in India?

[qarium]

You literally said black people are inherently less intelligent than other races.

this has nothing to do with racism... this is science you can make IQ test on all these people and the result is always the same.

How is that not racist?

science is not racism... racism is a judgment means you say these people are bad people only because of this.
but they are not bad people they can simple just not to this job "software developer" but they can be handy man and can earn money by building Furniture.
no one stop them to be handy man and build Furniture.

That kind of nonsense shouldn't be welcome here, and judging by the deletion of your post, it isn't.

it is not nonsense it is science truth. some jobs can only be done by people who have the requirements

and it is a science fact that intelligence is conected to the genetic of a human.

no one stops these people in having a happy life by be a handy man and build Furniture for people.

[leech]

this has nothing to do with racism... this is science you can make IQ test on all these people and the result is always the same.



science is not racism... racism is a judgment means you say these people are bad people only because of this.
but they are not bad people they can simple just not to this job "software developer" but they can be handy man and can earn money by building Furniture.
no one stop them to be handy man and build Furniture.



it is not nonsense it is science truth. some jobs can only be done by people who have the requirements

and it is a science fact that intelligence is conected to the genetic of a human.

no one stops these people in having a happy life by be a handy man and build Furniture for people.

If you're going to make those arguments, you should quote the scientific journals. It's more about nature vs nurture. If you're raised in a terrible neighborhood where violence is common, as is drug abuse, etc. You're more likely to end up less educated and stuck doing lesser jobs, and the cycle repeats until someone can break it. Genetics have an effect, but it isn't the only factor.

[abu_shawarib]

I feel like the result in the RMS thing is good. Refraining from participating in that drama on the top level is good for the project.

[kingu]

Removing RMS does away with a lot of proven ability to produce good licenses. Debian has a lot of GPL-licensed software.
The best of intentions would not have built a campaign against him on a fundamental lie, with media backing.
Can't see him not returning to form as being good for Debian.
There aren't a lot of candidates that measure up(?), and a few of the intermediary people have left for his return.
Add to this a special effort to remove him is now trying to rally GNU under a CoC with aspirations of new governance.

https://www.phoronix.com/forums/forum/phoronix/latest-phoronix-articles/1251176-gnu-assembly-launches-as-collaborative-platform-for-gcc-other-packages?p=1251459#post1251459

If you want to avoid drama, that seems like a door to close. Can't do that by staying silent.

As hopefully not an example of, banning the guy earlier in the thread means one can't reason with him from a standpoint of helping to avoid going about it the wrong way.
Furthermore, calling him and/or others "cockroaches" is not conducive to producing a desired outcome.

https://polemia.com/pdf/AshbeyRaceRushton.pdf

https://english.intelligence-humaine.com/Documents/Race%20Differences%20In%20Intelligence.pdf

In searching for the heritability of IQ, to get some isolated data, you can furthermore either settle on some very bunk science,
or come to terms with biology being less than ideal for the purposes of ensuring an equal playing field. Most people would love to come away with different conclusions.

Are we going to pretend we can find the key to getting more of anyone into Debian by looking at research and studies?
Debian has next to no PR. The people in it have by and large found their own way in. That door is wide open.

It could be argued that somehow Debian does extremely well in attracting highly intelligent individuals, seeing as this is a very slim percentage of the population.
Other traits such as Aspberger's is also overrepresented with Debian developers, by a country mile.
It just so happens that women aren't diagnosed with this as often, but that could be down to applied psychology either under-diagnosing, over-diagnosing, or using means of finding or expecting traits found in males, etc.

Or, being a Debian Developer selects for tolerance for chaos, or other unequal distributions between the genders.
When will the oppression of women collecting postage stamps end…
Debian certainly does fantastic with the tiny margin of people that want to be seen as a different gender than they are born, male to female.
Where are the "bigots", "sexists", etc. thought to be responsible for other things there? Why haven't they been successful in preventing Debian from attracting the headpiece in matters thought diverse? Maybe the people giving others unequal treatment in Debian are, dare i say it, a diversity of sorts?
If only there was a way to do away with treating people differently, and undermining the accomplishments of certain people because of it…

Whatever set of circumstances led to the current group of Debian developers, arguing it is has to be racism based on its outcome, is laughable.
Not only is it unwarranted, it's the deeply counterfactual.
How anyone can argue _Debian developers_ aren't diverse, is beyond me. Save for the fact that they don't have an airborne fuck to give as to what race you are.
Applying "racism" as a stopgap excuse for Indians, and in this case women from India, _just_ because it so happens to be a distinct distribution of the genetic pool, _is racist_.
Drawing from the hat holding the good arguments, and applying it to everyone, means Indian women have agency on equal footing.

Anyone is free to argue what they think is the cause of Indian women not contributing code to Debian, (and I'll throw in except for that one woman, currently.)
Mozilla just axed their entire department in India (of which I know two people), an organization that could be said to be betting the house on "diversity".
If you are Indian, you may well want job security…? Maybe this sets a precedence for how solid the jobs in libre software are there?

I, for one, just think it is great that people that are different have a place to call their own. Debian devs are all different.
Why does the Debian makeup have to be the same as everywhere else, in the name of diversity? Why doesn't the "diversity" folks instead celebrate the major contributions from outcast and socially derelict people at Debian? I can only conclude any talk of "diversity" means nothing can ever be good, good enough at that, or be presented as a functional argument.

Most of this thread is concerned with how "diversity" is either not the issue, or something people want to spend energy applying.
Something mostly thought to be either a scourge, or a miracle. Yet from the voting, one could imagine Debian wants to get better at accounting, isn't that something to look into?

Debian voting reaffirmed (if this thread is anything to go by) that focus on diversity could for all intents and purposes help elect counter-candidates, and really takes away from what could be a total platform, or focus from the people that have one. In my head an Indian woman forwarding a baseless argument of "diversity" is bound to go exactly as well as when others try it. Does anyone believe Debian failed to elect a non-Indian woman leader because of racism? What I am seeing is that a candidate with not a whole lot of Debian policy placed _second_.

This experiment lands Debian the same top management, having spent money on "diversity" already, with less than nothing to show for it both in terms of "diversity", and said money. In this world you can hire Indians, they will work for money. If zero supposedly racist structures have succeeded at undoing anything that wasn't obviously racist, why would Debian be the place?

I have contributed to Debian here and there, and now I use Devuan. Women can now pick the one they want to contribute to. Diversity and choice, all that good stuff.
If I contribute more to the latter now, I will probably in the eyes of the diversity "chiefs"/"professors" have succeeded in making the remainder of Debian contributors diverse more-so than their entire diversity budget did, by their own metrics.

TL;DR Maybe Debian isn't racist after all?

[lowflyer]

I feel like the result in the RMS thing is good. Refraining from participating in that drama on the top level is good for the project.

No, that's not what they said. They said "no public statement" will be given. This just means that they will stoke up the feud behind closed doors. With that statement they just made it look like they refrain from participating. That's good for the masses and to wash their hands of the responsibility.

If Debian was not dead yet, it is by now.