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  • #51
    Originally posted by fafreeman View Post
    ...opinions by casting doubt with having your own opinion. or worse, you get the ones that scream "letting people have opinions is how you get hitler!." it just never stops. you really have to be careful what you say these days. we are going back to the middle ages in the name of progress and inclusion. people just can't tolerate things they don't like anymore.
    Indeed it is a thin line. The paradox In a real democracy you have to allow undemocratic thoughts. But people really underestimate how a well developed, civilized, democratic country can turn in a suppressing dictatorship. You don't know how shocked people in germany are about trump and friends. It is exactly what has happend around 1920 here in germany,
    When people think of nazi germany they have the picture of a nation mean, evil, satanistic with a long history of cruelty in mind...no in fact germany 1920 was a civilized country with a working democracy. The laws back then where not much differing from them nowadays. it was not more racist then france, uk at that time. jews have been part of society but not as segregated as one would think. yes they were not much liked comparable to hispanics in us today. It was hatespeech, false narative of politicians, drawing an easy populistic picture of the scapegoat jew which lead to the cruel killing machinery 10 -15 years later. The steps have been so small such that they can be accepted easily.
    Hitler was elected legally as chancelor. He struggled to get the whole power of the parliament because even at that time there have been safety mechanisms to not give all the power to one person without some restriction. He was able to sneak around by faking that Poland has started a war on germany which was totally untrue. But the "war" convinced the parliament and President von Hindenburg to engage special emergency acts....what happend then is known by everyone.

    Its foolish to believe that this can only happen in germany. And it is foolish to believe that Dictatorships are obvious. No they are only obvious in retrospective ..it is really just a thin line between democracy and dictatorship.

    Yes any suppression of freedom of speech can lead to undemocratic tendencies..difficult to keep the balance. And if we look at the culture how people of colour and different gender are treated today. It is necessary to give them a lobby but it should not be the main purpose of an IT project.
    Last edited by CochainComplex; 20 April 2021, 03:33 AM.

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    • #52
      Diversity and inclusion policies are mainly for good optics and progressive messaging. They do work in that way - helping a bit to normalize something socially. Unfortunately, they do not work as a solution to fundamental social issues, which create inequality/unbalanced distribution/etc. of specific local groups (or nations/cultures globally) in the first place. At the end of the day it's entirely up to specific organization/community to implement them or not, and it's their right to do so if they want it.

      Personally I'm not against it in general. I think that it's possible to hire both diverse and competent people. However, as in many cases in life some level of common sense and healthy balance must be maintained.

      Also PoC in general are not biologically "less smart", it's all about socioeconomics. Some really regressive shit was said in this thread...

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      • #53
        Originally posted by 144Hz View Post
        reavertm Debian’s default desktop is updated. Some modules get updates faster than rolling releases.
        There is more to desktop than just default DE. Graphics drivers, kernel.. Debian is the definition of outdated. Or perhaps my experience with it is outdated. It for sure was the case whenever I tried it in a past.

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        • #54
          reavertm Problem solved then. You are outdated, Debian is fully updated. Let’s fix that.

          Lots of Debian-based distributions and independents make this happen. Here’s a link to latest GTK3 release. (~1000 days of LTS)
          https://salsa.debian.org/gnome-team/...stream/3.24.28

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          • #55
            Originally posted by 144Hz View Post
            reavertm Problem solved then. You are outdated, Debian is fully updated. Let’s fix that.

            Lots of Debian-based distributions and independents make this happen. Here’s a link to latest GTK3 release. (~1000 days of LTS)
            https://salsa.debian.org/gnome-team/...stream/3.24.28
            https://www.debian.org/doc/manuals/d...sktops.pl.html

            Ok, just checked, it's still outdated.
            I think you are missing the point. If I need to add some PPA, yum site, AUR or Gentoo overlay to have the latest packages, or downgrade distro to unstable (even if by pinning packages), then in my book it's outdated. Availability of latest packages in stable distro is what I count as "updated".
            This is off topic anyway and EOF from me.
            Last edited by reavertm; 20 April 2021, 10:45 AM.

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            • #56
              reavertm Your source is an old ebook. My source is recent code commits.

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              • #57
                Originally posted by reavertm View Post
                I think you are missing the point. If I need to add some PPA, yum site, AUR or Gentoo overlay to have the latest packages, or downgrade distro to unstable (even if by pinning packages), then in my book it's outdated. Availability of latest packages in stable distro is what I count as "updated".
                This is off topic anyway and EOF from me.
                Your complaint about Debian stable being outdated struck me as odd.

                Because - of course it is outdated. That's it's whole purpose! To not strive for the latest and greatest but provide maximum stability for all provided programs and services.
                To be more "up to date" use testing or unstable, they have more recent packages - at the cost of not being totally stable but just 99,9%.
                That's the tradeoff to make, depending on the objective.

                Using older packages means they are more stable, more tested and more bug-free.
                Using "latest" packages means they have not been testen as well as "old" software packages - simply because they have not been around as long as the others.

                So you're complaining about something which is, by definition, not achievable: stable and latest. Just pick one.

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                • #58
                  Originally posted by reba View Post

                  Your complaint about Debian stable being outdated struck me as odd.

                  Because - of course it is outdated. That's it's whole purpose! To not strive for the latest and greatest but provide maximum stability for all provided programs and services.
                  To be more "up to date" use testing or unstable, they have more recent packages - at the cost of not being totally stable but just 99,9%.
                  That's the tradeoff to make, depending on the objective.

                  Using older packages means they are more stable, more tested and more bug-free.
                  Using "latest" packages means they have not been testen as well as "old" software packages - simply because they have not been around as long as the others.

                  So you're complaining about something which is, by definition, not achievable: stable and latest. Just pick one.
                  It is only not achievable for distro that is slave to its freezing policy and freezes versions of all packages. There are distros that provide somewhat new but stable base packages with freezing model but almost rolling release model for "desktop" relevant packages. That's what I call desktop friendly distro and Debian is not one of them AFAIK.

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                  • #59
                    reavertm Debian offers upstream packages, unstable packages, testing packages, stable packages, old-stable packages and downstream specific packages. Basically it’s uniform packaging and CD/CI meeting all needs and distribution models. Why is that so difficult for you to understand?

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                    • #60
                      Originally posted by CochainComplex View Post
                      Yes any suppression of freedom of speech can lead to undemocratic tendencies..difficult to keep the balance. And if we look at the culture how people of colour and different gender are treated today. It is necessary to give them a lobby but it should not be the main purpose of an IT project.
                      This is going to sound bad, but (implied/forced) diversity is really only needed in the bureaucratic areas, decision making processes, and with unskilled labor. Basically, everyone not extremely stupid or with a mental issue should be able to do committees, ensure safe workplaces, plan things out, cleanliness, ethics, etc because we're all on equal footing more or less. In regards to actual skilled labor, and this is anywhere from farming to programming, doesn't really matter, it should really be about skill and merit because we're not on equal footing. We all have different strengths and weaknesses; different passions and dislikes.

                      That doesn't mean there should be a bias or preference to try to achieve diversity in non-diverse areas. For example -- if you already have 80% one group in the workplace, you have one or two jobs open, 5 equally fresh out of school candidates apply, and 4 out 5 are all from that 80% group, give the 1 out of 5 a shot. Worst case scenario -- you have plenty of backups to call if that person doesn't hack it. Best case scenario -- you'll get a different world perspective that could possibly lead to innovation.

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