Xfce 4.20 Aiming For Usable Wayland Support While Maintaining X11 Compatibility

[Weasel]

Weasel those tasks that functionality is missing from Wayland protocol are people willing to pay for them.

X11 is unusable for may tasks because it design is a security nightmare. Like X11 cannot have a functionally correct lock screen. The result of this issue may parts will not fund your X11 bar metal.

Microsoft fund part of Xwayland and weston development with WSLG. A lot of automotive and embedded fund weston and qt for Wayland..

Weasel the problem here is Now is the important. Since X11 does not pass security now its not getting funding for it bare metal development. If there is some X11 bare metal breaking change happens there really is going to be no developer to fix bare metal.

Really using X11 is like driving a car with the engine warning light on and ignoring it. Yes just like the car at some point it going to stop and no body is going to be able to fix it.

Weasel please note I have not said your complaint about lack of features is wrong. You also have to think correct HDR is not coming to X11 protocol. There are going to be more and more use cases that work under Wayland that don't work under X11 and this is because Wayland is a still developing protocol with funded development..

At some point Weasel like it or not you have to accept the writing on the wall.

X11 won't stop working, that's what Wayland does. Stop working means functionality.

Your analogy is retarded. A correct analogy would be:

X11 is like a car with full features, except it has no airbags.
Wayland is like a horse-drawn wagon that guarantees your safety on any impact but is slow and shit.

"Slow" doesn't mean performance in this analogy, it means features. Guess which one I'll pick.

[asriel]

It's a nice one. People behind Wayland: "Let's create something so complex and requiring so much effort to be implemented, most projects will either take years to support it or outright die off along with Xorg".

You got it wrong. People behind wayland did not have enough skill and knowledge to understand how why and what was done in Xorg, so they decided to create stupid ugly software missing all the features they did not understand, but pretty good for fast and easy hardware access to play games. So now every DE developer need to re-invent all those features that were beyond the scope of undersytanding for people behind wayland - and it takes years.

[oiaohm]

X11 is like a car with full features, except it has no airbags.

Lot of countries will not allow a car without suitable safety features to drive on their roads. This is the problem X11 has.

Guess which one I'll pick.

In many countries you will be choosing to install Windows because your government will not support X11 even in web browser because the will call it insecure.

[mrg666]

People behind wayland did not have enough skill and knowledge to understand how why and what was done in Xorg, so they decided to create stupid ugly software missing all the features they did not understand, but pretty good for fast and easy hardware access to play games. So now every DE developer need to re-invent all those features that were beyond the scope of undersytanding for people behind wayland - and it takes years.

So you do have enough knowledge and skill but you still don't know that Wayland is not code. It is a protocol. I am sure you have checked the nonexistent code to decide it is ugly. Can you give a link to your work that we can all see the beautiful code you have written, please?

[oiaohm]

You got it wrong. People behind wayland did not have enough skill and knowledge to understand how why and what was done in Xorg, so they decided to create stupid ugly software missing all the features they did not understand, but pretty good for fast and easy hardware access to play games. So now every DE developer need to re-invent all those features that were beyond the scope of undersytanding for people behind wayland - and it takes years.

This is not historic fact. Core Wayland developers are highly experienced X11 developers.

Wayland committee process is slow. Take the

https://www.phoronix.com/news/Wayland-xdg-toplevel-drag

This is not implemented under X11 protocol. Instead how this works under X11 is application receives the mouse message from the X11 server then the application tells the X11 server to move the window then has to remember to destroy the Window when the drag stops. This is a lot of IPC messages. The new protocol Application tells compositor connect this surface to the mouse while it being dragged.

Then you have like the X11 system tray
https://specifications.freedesktop.o...pec-latest.htm but no modern X11 DE support this instead they support https://www.freedesktop.org/wiki/Spe...sNotifierItem/ that a dbus protocol. What did the X11 developers who years of experience learn from this system tray event. Really simple sending everything by a single socket turns out to be a really bad idea. Yes you could have applications changing system tray quickly using the X11 one stall out the complete interface.

Wayland developers are well and truly bitten by different cases X11 protocol got extend resulting in sending too much by one connection though a single application causing performance problems. So wayland developers will want to look at dbus and other solutions instead of just shoving something into Wayland protocol and this is due to the X11 experience behind them.

Lack of experience as a X11 developer leads to people like avis presuming it a good idea to keep on shoving stuff into the Wayland protocol when those who have done core X11 development know this is a really bad idea.

Lot of people forgot at first Wayland protocol was not going to exist at first the developer of Wayland was going todo it all by dbus. Wayland protocol only appears because dbus does not have the features required for graphical performance.

[Weasel]

In many countries you will be choosing to install Windows because your government will not support X11 even in web browser because the will call it insecure.

Why is javascript allowed then? That's "native" code for the browser.

You are so cringe it's unreal.

[oiaohm]

Why is javascript allowed then? That's "native" code for the browser.

You are so cringe it's unreal.

Australian government you can write off a copy of MS Windows to perform your tax return every year if your core systems are Linux. Yes your tax return is done by browser. Australia is not the only country like this.

Weasel it government rules for you they don't make total sense. The issue is not working lock screen in many countries resulting in stuff being coded to block X11 usage even if it does not make much sense due to the other insecure garbage they are using..

Sorry I had a typo

"the will call it insecure." should have been "they will call it insecure."

I was attempting to write this because governments on this stuff are not what you call totally sane and are totally cringe on what they decide to allow and reject on security grounds.

The security faults of x11 do have to be addressed so more people can use Linux solutions without being forced by their government to buy and use windows and this is the reality of the mess like it or not Weasel.

[Weasel]

Australian government you can write off a copy of MS Windows to perform your tax return every year if your core systems are Linux. Yes your tax return is done by browser. Australia is not the only country like this.

Weasel it government rules for you they don't make total sense. The issue is not working lock screen in many countries resulting in stuff being coded to block X11 usage even if it does not make much sense due to the other insecure garbage they are using..

Sorry I had a typo

"the will call it insecure." should have been "they will call it insecure."

I was attempting to write this because governments on this stuff are not what you call totally sane and are totally cringe on what they decide to allow and reject on security grounds.

The security faults of x11 do have to be addressed so more people can use Linux solutions without being forced by their government to buy and use windows and this is the reality of the mess like it or not Weasel.

Sounds like a law designed by dinosaurs with zero understanding of technical merits.

In such case, it's pointless to blame it on a specific product. It's not like it is doing anything wrong (X11 in browser in this case, where browser already executes "native" code itself using javascript). Law can claim the Earth is flat but that doesn't make it true nor does it make proper explanations about its actual shape wrong.

[oiaohm]

Sounds like a law designed by dinosaurs with zero understanding of technical merits.

Yes laws are designed by Dinosaurs and always lag behind. Technical merits that another matter.

In such case, it's pointless to blame it on a specific product. It's not like it is doing anything wrong (X11 in browser in this case, where browser already executes "native" code itself using javascript). Law can claim the Earth is flat but that doesn't make it true nor does it make proper explanations about its actual shape wrong.

Its a technical limitation with X11 that you cannot implement a correctly functional lock screen. If the government rules says you must have correctly functional lockscreen to access X data then blocking anyone using X11 is the correct answer.

Weasel there are two very big issue why Linux has been unable to grow on the desktop coming from governments. Application compatibility with what governments require people to use and government security requirements.

Yes weasel you are wanting to dig you head in sand and say the security problems don't matter. Issue is they matter for a lot of people because of where they live and the forced government requirements by law. Particular things are personal choice other things are law.

[Weasel]

Its a technical limitation with X11 that you cannot implement a correctly functional lock screen. If the government rules says you must have correctly functional lockscreen to access X data then blocking anyone using X11 is the correct answer.

Weasel there are two very big issue why Linux has been unable to grow on the desktop coming from governments. Application compatibility with what governments require people to use and government security requirements.

Yes weasel you are wanting to dig you head in sand and say the security problems don't matter. Issue is they matter for a lot of people because of where they live and the forced government requirements by law. Particular things are personal choice other things are law.

Ok dude, but legit who asked about lock screen?

Can you give an actual valid example of such a problem in the god damn BROWSER because that's what the topic was about.

Who needs a lock screen inside of browser WASM? WTF? Stop grasping at straws. Pretty sure the browser itself cannot lock your screen anyway, so it's a completely off topic and nonsensical example.