Xfce 4.20 Aiming For Usable Wayland Support While Maintaining X11 Compatibility

[oiaohm]

Can you give a link?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IEGqZspZtfw

Yes the video is laugh at you avis for being incompetent. . I told yo a long time ago stop using 233 issue contains too many incorrect facts and now you are coming light news day filler for Linux you-tubers to be laughed at..

[Anux]

Yes the video is laugh at you avis for being incompetent.

Don't know, if that really was a good idea? Someone will come to that comment section and spam it with half truths and bullshit.

[avis]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IEGqZspZtfw

Yes the video is laugh at you avis for being incompetent. . I told yo a long time ago stop using 233 issue contains too many incorrect facts and now you are coming light news day filler for Linux you-tubers to be laughed at..

You are egregiously lying again. Maybe you could provide the exact timestamps when such words were uttered.

I'm already at 14:45 and nothing on the list has been debunked or refuted but I've heard "This is uncomfortable truth" on several occasions.

https://youtu.be/IEGqZspZtfw?t=992

"The issue is developers in the upstream project are not interested in doing this".

I will not finish watching this video because it's not laughing at me or refuting anything, it's basically saying 1) Wayland has its own way 2) Wayland libraries are already "good enough" (that's actually not true by the author's own admission) 3) It's ... OK to build an equivalent of Xorg for Wayland. No one just wants to do that.

What you're saying is just fucking despicable oiaohm.

The ignore list has completely stopped working here because I shouldn't be seeing your posts, as well as Anux' who is just barking along and has absolutely nothing to say.

The issue is very much relevant and nothing has changed.

Thanks for free publicity though. Much appreciated.

[Weasel]

If you are looking at having companies pay for developers to take care of it Wayland not having the security faults is more likely to have embedded users and so on pay for Wayland development.

So Wayland has money to over time close the functionality gap. X11 bare metal does not appear to have the money to maintain itself.

Basically they are the worst in to different ways. Wayland has possibility of improvement due to paid developers.

Weasel those attempt to keep X11 alive are not answering the question how is X11 xserver maintenance going to be funded going forwards. Wayland you can answer this question and find the parties putting up the money.

Without the required functionality it's completely unusable for some tasks (that X11 has, not anything "new"). It doesn't matter if it will get there in the future, what matters is NOW because it's today you are using your system with it, not in 100 years.

[oiaohm]

You are egregiously lying again. Maybe you could provide the exact timestamps when such words were uttered.

I'm already at 14:45 and nothing on the list has been debunked or refuted but I've heard "This is uncomfortable truth" on several occasions.

https://youtu.be/IEGqZspZtfw?t=992

Watch all the video before commenting of this response was expected because this is bird is a idiot.

[oiaohm]

Without the required functionality it's completely unusable for some tasks (that X11 has, not anything "new"). It doesn't matter if it will get there in the future, what matters is NOW because it's today you are using your system with it, not in 100 years.

Weasel those tasks that functionality is missing from Wayland protocol are people willing to pay for them.

X11 is unusable for may tasks because it design is a security nightmare. Like X11 cannot have a functionally correct lock screen. The result of this issue may parts will not fund your X11 bar metal.

Microsoft fund part of Xwayland and weston development with WSLG. A lot of automotive and embedded fund weston and qt for Wayland..

Weasel the problem here is Now is the important. Since X11 does not pass security now its not getting funding for it bare metal development. If there is some X11 bare metal breaking change happens there really is going to be no developer to fix bare metal.

Really using X11 is like driving a car with the engine warning light on and ignoring it. Yes just like the car at some point it going to stop and no body is going to be able to fix it.

Weasel please note I have not said your complaint about lack of features is wrong. You also have to think correct HDR is not coming to X11 protocol. There are going to be more and more use cases that work under Wayland that don't work under X11 and this is because Wayland is a still developing protocol with funded development..

At some point Weasel like it or not you have to accept the writing on the wall.

[EphemeralEft]

You are egregiously lying again. Maybe you could provide the exact timestamps when such words were uttered.

I'm already at 14:45 and nothing on the list has been debunked or refuted but I've heard "This is uncomfortable truth" on several occasions.

https://youtu.be/IEGqZspZtfw?t=992

"The issue is developers in the upstream project are not interested in doing this".

I will not finish watching this video because it's not laughing at me or refuting anything, it's basically saying 1) Wayland has its own way 2) Wayland libraries are already "good enough" (that's actually not true by the author's own admission) 3) It's ... OK to build an equivalent of Xorg for Wayland. No one just wants to do that.

What you're saying is just fucking despicable oiaohm.

The ignore list has completely stopped working here because I shouldn't be seeing your posts, as well as Anux' who is just barking along and has absolutely nothing to say.

The issue is very much relevant and nothing has changed.

Thanks for free publicity though. Much appreciated.

I don't think Brodie ever called you "incompetent" or said that you were a bad person—nor have most people. The video was about summarizing your arguments and actions, and endorsing or criticizing them where appropriate. For example, "Linux users normally don't run random applications from the net" deserves criticism because it's factually incorrect (9:18). Also, mentioning your issue on unrelated issues deserves criticism because it's disrespectful and counter-productive (21:45).

[avis]

I don't think Brodie ever called you "incompetent" or said that you were a bad person—nor have most people. The video was about summarizing your arguments and actions, and endorsing or criticizing them where appropriate. For example, "Linux users normally don't run random applications from the net" deserves criticism because it's factually incorrect (9:18). Also, mentioning your issue on unrelated issues deserves criticism because it's disrespectful and counter-productive (21:45).

Indeed the vast majority of unprofessional Linux users never run random code from the net. Most Linux distros have been self-sufficient for over a decade now where the primary distro repo is enough for pretty much everything. Here on Fedora RPMFusion covers pretty much everything the home user may want or need.

And then if you do run alien code, an X session hijacking is the absolute least of your worries. What you run can do anything to your files, override/create Autostart entries, alter environment variables such as LD_PRELOAD, etc. etc. etc. You're truly fucked and Wayland does not prevent that. Wayland kinda helps if you run isolated software such as Snaps or Flatpaks but those are not always properly isolated either.

And I'm a professional IT user however I know how to run code without compromising my system. Both Xorg and Wayland are 100% orthogonal to that. I use a VM or run code under a different user account. My system is kept up to date at all times. I normally run the latest kernel release as soon as it gets released. I update my web browsers before they are formally announced. This gives me a real sense of security, not Wayland's "security" model, read "We will fuck your workload up and you'll have a hard time completing the tasks you had zero troubles with under Xorg".

The issue felt "disrespectful and counter-productive" to the video author because I had the insolence to doubt the rationale provided in the comments. The issue itself is absolutely normal.

Again, the angle matters. I said Wayland results in the insane duplication of effort, more work and bugs, fewer and worse supported features (for minor Wayland compositors) and that's the indisputable status quo with this brand new display tech. Even as of now in 2024 we already have a situation when major Wayland compositors differ greatly in offered features and somehow it's totally fucking fine.

It's not. And what I offered had a chance to solve this once and for all. Instead, we'll have kinda sorta fully functional KWin and Mutter and everyone else please fuck off. I do not understand why Wayland proponents cheer this situation. That's insanity.

I guess it's either KDE/Gnome or you don't deserve to run Linux any longer.

And the author of this video mentioned some weird Wayland compositors for some reasons. Guess what, I recently tried to make myself use Wayfire, probably the most featureful of them all. I couldn't find a working clipboard application for it. Fucking none. I need to have a history for my clipboard. Let's fucking celebrate it. Under IceWM I can run a dozen of X11 clipboard managers. Under Wayland? Switch to Gnome/KDE or get rekt.

God, it's so asinine to publish a video for your thousands of subscribers without ever letting me dispute anything and then admitting I'm "correct pretty much about everything but that's how it's meant to be". No, it's not.

Even more funnily how the author mentions the Louvre library and then admits ... it's already been kinda sorta abandoned and we're back to wlroots/libweston both of which leave a ton to be desired.

With X11 no matter what your WM was you had the same featureset sans compositing (optional and I always disable it). In fact Xorg is fully usable without a WM running, yeah, try it. You can run applications, they will lack decorations and you will not be able to move/resize them. That's it. Everything still worked: network transprancy, screen grabbing/capture, two clipboards (x11 and native), etc. etc. etc.

With Wayland you have to choose your WM wisely or forget about certain features. Fucking amazing. Let's celebrate this!

[Nocifer]

You are egregiously lying again. Maybe you could provide the exact timestamps when such words were uttered.

I'm already at 14:45 and nothing on the list has been debunked or refuted but I've heard "This is uncomfortable truth" on several occasions.

https://youtu.be/IEGqZspZtfw?t=992

"The issue is developers in the upstream project are not interested in doing this".

I will not finish watching this video because it's not laughing at me or refuting anything, it's basically saying 1) Wayland has its own way 2) Wayland libraries are already "good enough" (that's actually not true by the author's own admission) 3) It's ... OK to build an equivalent of Xorg for Wayland. No one just wants to do that.

What you're saying is just fucking despicable oiaohm.

The ignore list has completely stopped working here because I shouldn't be seeing your posts, as well as Anux' who is just barking along and has absolutely nothing to say.

The issue is very much relevant and nothing has changed.

Thanks for free publicity though. Much appreciated.

I've also just watched the video up to ~14:45 and I'm not sure which is worse, you being a hypocrite and trying to save yourself from further ridicule by fruitlessly attempting to fool those who won't bother watching the video themselves, or you being sincerely obtuse and unable to understand the simple, obvious fact that you are indeed being ridiculed in that video. The latter case is sad, but it would actually explain your masochistic behavior.

So, not only is the guy trying not to burst out laughing while saying stuff like "if you don't know who birdie aka avis is, you're in for a treat", but he also proceeds to actually refute your entire post point by point, only really acknowledging global shortcuts and absolute window positioning as valid issues, though as he points out, both of them are on their way to get fixed at some point in the immediate future.

He also acknowledges (in part) that having no common base for the various Wayland compositors is detrimental as a whole, especially for smaller projects, but that's something that even prominent Wayland proponents like KDE's Nate Graham and also many people here on Phoronix (you know, those same people you call "Phoronix idiots" and accuse of being blind Wayland fanboys) also agree on: in a nutshell, wlroots is how Wayland should probably have been developed from the start (we have GNOME to thank for that blunder) and it's a great base for future Wayland compositors to build upon and thus reduce the fragmentation, even if current compositors like KWin are already too heavily invested in their own solutions to ever consider switching to it, at least in the short/mid-term.

Long story short, I'm seriously baffled at how you can say what you've just said with a straight face, but then again, keyboard warriors are hardly a new phenomenon.

Now I'm off to watch the rest of the video.

EDIT: Well, the second half of that video turned out to be far more entertaining. I get why you want to pretend that you haven't watched it, and I can't say I blame you, so I'll also rest my case :-)

[oiaohm]

Guess what, I recently tried to make myself use Wayfire, probably the most featureful of them all. I couldn't find a working clipboard application for it.

https://github.com/chmouel/clipman

Yes this is running into the problem that nobody funded wants to maintain the clipboard manager for Wlroots wayland compositors.

Also clipman works under KDE by the way.

Even more funnily how the author mentions the Louvre library and then admits ... it's already been kinda sorta abandoned and we're back to wlroots/libweston both of which leave a ton to be desired.

You skipped over a basic. If you window manager is written in C not C++ then Louvre is no real particular use. Same kind of reason why smithay for rust is no use. Majority of historic X11 windows managers are not written in C++. Like xfce that C code base not a C++ one.

Avis like or not you want to help out legacy X11 windows managers you need a C solution because 90+% of the are C. If not a C solution it will be simpler to rewrite the complete thing.

Avis I have never seen you open a issue against libweston or wlroots asking for single feature. That post where you ask for a stack of features is pointless. Particularly when you include items like system tray that even under X11 is done over dbus these days.

The louvre being C++ it has to face off against Qt Wayland compositor feature. Yes the Qt Wayland compositor code is more feature complete than the louvre code.

https://embeddeduse.com/2021/06/01/architecture-of-qt-embedded-systems-single-vs-multiple-gui-applications/

The choice in the embedded space is between Qt Wayland compositor and weston Wayland in a lot of cases.

https://www.qt.io/blog/change-in-open-source-licensing-of-qt-wayland-compositor-qt-application-manager-and-qt-pdf

The big thing being you make a Qt Wayland compositor you better like GPLv3 or be willing to pay..

kwin has it own developed solution but they share developments with the qt developers.

Avis the problem comes back to who is going to pay people to take care of the code. No major party is willing to pay for a generic clipboard manager that works with KDE, Qt Compositor and Wlroots wayland compositors. Yes that clipman is that I pointed you at is that broad of coverage.

Yes there has been a repeating problem that louvre is only the most recent example of. Lot of people start project so called to help the legacy windows managers then code it in C++ without a fully functional C API/ABI then wonder why their project does not take off.

C library can be used by a C++ program without major trouble. C++ library with fully defined C API/ABI can be used by a C program normally without major trouble(note normally application uses two libraries needing 2 different versions of C++ say hello trouble). C++library without a defined C API/ABI cannot be used with a C code program because the interfaces you need are not there..