Asahi Linux To Users: Please Stop Using X.Org

[Quackdoc]

Yeah, quite a different experience. I've been daily driving Wayland for 5 years in my ThinkPad (maybe an occasional switch to X.org for a moment on specific issues). I can't say I didn't have issues, but today I have far less than 5 years ago.

I try, as a software developer, to understand the guts of X and Wayland, and a bit of the history of X and for sure we need a switch from the ground up, we had to do it at some point, it's better we started a decade ago and not now.

the biggest issues wayland faces is oversight sadly, I would love to see a unified effort to support accsessibility protocols for instance, currently neither wayland protocols norxdg-desktop-protocol seem to be willing to implement protocols that are "insecure but good for accsessibility"

[ryao]

Even if just for a second have you ever considered that those professionals at asahi Linux might be right?

Is Martin a professional at Asahi?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hector_Martin_(hacker)

He is a security consultant. As far as I can tell, he is an amateur at Asahi, since he is not employed to work in the area (and as afar as I can tell never had been).

Alyssa Rosenzweig would be a professional in that area, but Hector Martin’s remarks are the reason this forum thread exists right now.

[ryao]

Honestly I think this should be the case for all Linux distro not just Asahi. We should start using Wayland and submit bug reports to it can get better be 100% replacement to x.org.

It cannot be a 100% replacement since it threw out the idea of supporting network transparency. It can get to good enough territory, but we are not there yet.

[ryao]

OK, so which of these has better performance after being used for 8 hours unplugged?

IMG_0934.jpg

(Hint: It's the cheaper one )

If that thinkpad is anything like mine, it will not reach 8 hours.

Also, ditching Intel for ARM made Apple more price competitive, so would I be wrong to guess that Apple is the cheaper one?

[ryao]

I used to be a Wayland critic, and I still think Wayland has its share of issues (but so does X).

Yet I've been exclusively using Wayland for several years now with no significant issues, on several machines. I wonder why there even is a discussion?

Many could say the same about X11. This is basically the new emacs vs vim debate.

[ryao]

It doesn't matter if you like xorg or wayland, Wayland is being maintained and worked on and nobody seems to want to work on Xorg, so you're pretty much stuck with what you've got now.

People are working on the Xorg X11 server. There is just little feature work being done right now, since there is not much left to add. Maybe once drivers and userland support HDR, someone will add that, but until then, what would you add that is not already there?

[DMJC]

And if it never is then what are you gonna do? Eventually the software that you use will drop support for X11, you'll be stuck, and it will be Mate's fault.

Also Wayland is way better for dual monitor stuff because it can actually support it.

If that happens, then I will potentially fork and write my own (since I can program in C/C++ or I might get ChatGPT6 to do it for me). But 1. I shouldn't have to and 2. MATE has Wayland in their roadmap, so this is more about distros getting ahead of themselves and being arrogant. Also, I could care less what Redhat does/doesn't do. They are a corporate distribution and frankly their distribution is awful. I'll stick to running the Debian pre-releases. They're relatively recent, but still more stable than a lot of the other distros.

[ryao]

I have modern hardware - an Intel 12700 driving a 27" 4K monitor.

And so I use 150% scaling.

Works fine in Wayland native apps but some apps I run all the time still use X - such as Android Studio and GoLand. I also use Visual Studio Code (which I am unable to set to native Wayland for some reason).

These XWayland apps appear blurry. I tried GNOME 44.1 (on Manjaro) and even though the PR for fractional scaling has been merged, these apps are still blurry.

This is disappointing, I was really hoping GNOME 44.1 would fix this. So what now - wait another 6 months for the next GNOME release?

Maybe JetBrains and Microsoft will update their apps.... some day. But they are not there now.

As a developer I just don't understand why it's taking so long for proper 4K support to be implemented. People needing HiDPI are not 1%. High res displays are very common these days - both on desktop computers and notebooks.

Another annoyance - applications cannot remember and restore their positions. Maybe it's "by design" but if so that's a really silly decision, and I just can't relate as a user.

I use KDE with a GeForce RTX 3080, a 4K display, the Xorg X11 server and 200% window scaling. With the exception of wine where I need to set a higher DPI in winecfg, everything just works for me.

Stop using wayland and you should have a nice experience too.

[ryao]

You go maintain it then, I'm waiting.
Since you know so much, seriously, go and take a look at that codebase. No amount of IQ overcomes and architectural fuck up iterated on for decades with technical debt.

Have fun while you are doing it too. Until I see you make regular PR's you can STFU with the unqualified opinion.

What would maintaining it look like? Unlike Wayland, the Xorg X11 server does not really need feature work, so the rate of patching does not need to be as high.

[ryao]

outside of apple there is exactly 1 product: https://german.alibaba.com/product-d...546769041.html

its the Rockchip 3388s chip. compared to apple it is cheap. performance is not as good but still good in the ARM world

In the future, we should have this too:

https://www.powerpc-notebook.org/en/

By the way, there is no 3388s chip. Maybe you meant the RK3588S, but that link claims to use the higher end RK3588.