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Asahi Linux To Users: Please Stop Using X.Org

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  • #71
    Originally posted by antonyshen View Post
    Can we just ditch Apple HW since they don't want to support Linux development at all? This world consists of every kind of things, do not force everyone to use Mac.
    They may not support Linux officially, but they have fixed bugs that Asahi devs have found (last one iirc was with bootloader) and we know that it was due to Asahi because it was a bespoke bug that Linux found.
    Last edited by mdedetrich; 13 May 2023, 04:35 PM.


    • #72
      I've been using KDE Wayland since Plasma 5.20 and I don't understand all the fuzz about it supposedly being broken.

      With the latest version available to me (5.27.5), I have working mixed-DPI multi monitor support with adaptive sync (this includes windows that are rendering to both screeens simultanously!) and scaling XWayland and Flatpak applications. Screenshots, screencasting/-recording and VNC works without requiring tinkering. Theming is properly applied, including to XWayland and GTK apps, drag and drop works as expected, same goes for the clipboard. Gaming works flawlessly aswell - there is even support for "tearing mode" if people want the lowest latency possible.

      Have people, who still claim that it is "completely unusable", actually tried a more recent version? If yes, what is your use case?


      • #73
        Originally posted by vivnet View Post

        I personally use a MacBook Air while in the field because it's light, wont overheat, long battery life, and high quality. And while I still use MacOS on that machine, there will come a day when Apple decides to leave the machine in the past, and at that time I will more than gladly be looking to install Linux directly on the hardware. The development environment is easier to keep sane anyway.

        I believe this to be that reason.
        Absolutely, when the updates aren't flowing and hardware is deemed "obsolete" by the manufacturer, great use case for Linux. And again, that's why I support people in hacking it up and getting it working and all that. I'm just not sure why any non-developer would be doing it now. And again if anyone wants to, more power to you!


        • #74
          Originally posted by mirmirmir View Post
          Wayland is not broken, kde is.

          Every internet argument around wayland would be more far less toxic if everyone could just accept this fact.

          But hey, dragging everyone down in linux desktop is the job of kde fans I guess 🍷🍷
          Currently switched to Wayland on KDE, just reached level 20 on Diablo 4 stress test.
          Yes, a yet-to-be-released game is working remarkably fine (no crash, stutters or glitches at all) on Linux + KDE + Wayland + Proton-GE 8 (via Lutris).


          • #75
            Originally posted by pharmasolin View Post

            The post above is about modern hardware, not some shitty laptop from 2010s or earlier.

            If you have modern hardware there is no need for a regular user to use xorg. Those who are bitching about wayland doesn't support feature 'X' are just a 1% userbase who need this feature.
            I have modern hardware - an Intel 12700 driving a 27" 4K monitor.

            And so I use 150% scaling.

            Works fine in Wayland native apps but some apps I run all the time still use X - such as Android Studio and GoLand. I also use Visual Studio Code (which I am unable to set to native Wayland for some reason).

            These XWayland apps appear blurry. I tried GNOME 44.1 (on Manjaro) and even though the PR for fractional scaling has been merged, these apps are still blurry.

            This is disappointing, I was really hoping GNOME 44.1 would fix this. So what now - wait another 6 months for the next GNOME release?

            Maybe JetBrains and Microsoft will update their apps.... some day. But they are not there now.

            As a developer I just don't understand why it's taking so long for proper 4K support to be implemented. People needing HiDPI are not 1%. High res displays are very common these days - both on desktop computers and notebooks.

            Another annoyance - applications cannot remember and restore their positions. Maybe it's "by design" but if so that's a really silly decision, and I just can't relate as a user.


            • #76
              I used to be a Wayland critic, and I still think Wayland has its share of issues (but so does X).

              Yet I've been exclusively using Wayland for several years now with no significant issues, on several machines. I wonder why there even is a discussion?


              • #77
                Originally posted by ayumu View Post
                I will continue to ignore Apple's offerings. I am optimistic a range of RISC-V options will be available as early as 2024.

                In any event, I can hold onto my Zen+ thinkpad until I can upgrade to RISC-V.
                I'm not so optimistic. TBH current non-Apple high performance quality non-X86 notebooks situation is pretty shit, unfortunately. Furthermore, I do not see this changing any time soon.

                Let's start with ARM based stuff. Aside from fucking internet browsing oriented garbage tier machines like Chromebooks and alike the only machine in my mind worth considering is ThinkPad X13s, but Linux support for it, well, let's say I would think twice before purchasing it for Linux. Let's leave it here. This year we may get a few machines based on SD 8 cx gen 3, but a) it's already kind of a little bit dated (X1/A78) b) there won't be a good Linux support around the launch date (if at all) and c) most likely they will cost a lot (or quality will be poor). More general problem is a high performance ARM based SoC market for PC itself. Effectively there is none. Qualcomm is basically the only vendor who does something there, but the whole SnapDragon software stack which comes with it, how to put this politely, is not the most elegant one let's say (and I work with SD SoCs for embedded systems, so I get to taste it). Most stuff is old kernel out-of tree (and quite poorly maintained (and coded) I may add), while at the same time most of the good stuff is proprietary-only anyway. So yeah, ARM is cool and all, but when you throw near 2 grands for a ARM laptop which may have broken/disabled power management for a half of the blocks or be fundamentally unstable my enthusiasm regarding these is not rising.

                As for RISC-V, there is no high performance core at all. Ascalon from Tenstorrent seems to be the first one made in a near future and the consumer market most likely won't see it, unless they going to license IP AND somebody will use it for a consumer-oriented SoC AND someone will make a decent device with it. Considering the fact RISC-V ecosystem is still pretty young, Windows won't support it and aarch64 is essentially de-facto industry standard for power efficient high performance platforms, I don't see a lot hope there.

                I think that Apple Macbook Air M1/M2 with asahi is (and will continue to be for some time) the best option for people who want decent high performance non-X86 laptop with Linux. A tragedy in some sense, but it is how it is

                In my opinion, the only feasible way (at least short-term) to get a open source/open philosophy friendly non-X86 laptop is to establish a crowd-funding for a ARM or RISC-V based motherboard for a Framework laptop and somehow push it (through some sort of a partnership deal) as an option for a motherboard in the Framework's marketplace. Perhaps also with a Windows support (implies ARM though), because otherwise it would fail economically I suppose
                Last edited by drakonas777; 13 May 2023, 03:11 PM.


                • #78
                  Originally posted by mercster View Post
                  Don't forget the other obvious advantage: the OS. You can stan for Linux all you want, and hate Apple as a corporation all you want, but it is certified UNIX, and Linux is not ;-) It may not be your cup of tea, but it's not a piece of garbage. Why you'd replace MacOS with Linux on one of these expensive, locked-in ecosystem machines in the first place is beyond me.
                  Exactly, Mac OS is UNIX done right, Linux is UNIX done by thousands of people that do not speak to one another.


                  • #79
                    Proponents of proprietary hardware are gonna be the proponents of proprietary software.


                    • #80
                      Originally posted by Venemo View Post
                      I just came here to say that I'm very proud of the Asahi Linux developers for daring to voice this opinion.
                      It's an opinion written as if claiming fact, however, and the tone is distinctly dismissive and condescending of those that will inevitably disagree. There are ways to ask people to do things. The way this letter is written as if it's a preacher with his back to the congregation because some are giving him dirty looks of disagreement so he's preaching to his self-righteous choir with smiles all over their faces. So the letter writer shouldn't be surprised the letter has the opposite effect intended on a general audience: go away, your opinion doesn't change the real and immediate facts we have to deal with right now.