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Asahi Linux To Users: Please Stop Using X.Org

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  • tech post on what MATE on Wayland would take by myself (a MATE dev) unapproved. Could someone here manually evaluate it?

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    • Two news guys, and both bad so no matter which one goes first.
      Wayland is shit. and...
      Wayland is a future.

      Nobody promised us happy future - and corporations and money are voting for wayland. As many things our days - things sells not because of engineers, things sells because of marketing. A the people who are in charge of money flow are not engineers - they follow bullshit and pay for bullshit. Same as wayland architects and developers - they are not engineers, they are generators of bullshit. And about Xorg - ok, that's old stuff designed by engineers who knew how to develop software well, but do not have a siingle chance to produce so much selling bullshit as waylanders do. So wayland is our post-apocalyptic future. Dark, ugly , stinky - and all we have to do is to survive in it, or at least learn how to survive in it. Not a single benefit - just headaches and trouble, but all distro managers sing like the fat lady - "switch to wayland, switch to wayland"...

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      • Xorg "defenders" love to write about how Wayland is the worst thing that happened in Linux. Imagine if this amount of characters were written adding features and maintaining Xorg.
        Last edited by evasb; 15 May 2023, 08:09 PM.

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        • Originally posted by akira128 View Post

          I can't believe you're using an advert to somehow add credence to your claim, but sure.
          Ok, so the advert mentions different use-case scenarios: presentations, gaming, and CPU intensive tasks.
          I'm not sure if you're aware how adverts works -- but they typically try to appeal the widest audience possible. Here, they're clearly attempting to appeal to businesses, gamers, and creative professionals. I'm sure that one of those categories trumps the others. Like what if you just want to use it for gaming or for presentations? According to the advert, those are perfectly legitimate use-case scenarios.
          And the end of the day a mac mini is just a computer -- that can be used for almost any general computing use-case scenario.
          Do you really not understand that?

          I'm looking at reviews of the mac mini and I can't find a single one that even mentions this ProRes feature that according to you is the only reason to buy one. I don't know what to tell you at this point. Maybe learn how advertisements work.

          /https://medium.com/macoclock/5-reasons-you-should-buy-an-m2-mac-mini-and-reasons-you-shouldnt-4f84af25b86
          /https://www.tomsguide.com/reviews/mac-mini-m2
          /https://www.theguardian.com/technology/2023/feb/13/apple-mac-mini-m2-review-cheaper-tiny-but-mighty-computer
          /https://www.zdnet.com/article/apple-mac-mini-2023-review/
          /https://www.musicradar.com/reviews/apple-mac-mini-m2
          /https://www.digitaltrends.com/computing/apple-mac-mini-review/
          /https://www.techadvisor.com/article/1510688/apple-mac-mini-m2-review.html​
          If you go on YouTube and search for M1+video editing or M2+video editing you will find hundreds of videos of various testers saying the same thing, for certain specific tasks, mostly related to ProRes and ProRes RAW, these are untouchable.

          I will ask you a simple question, if you want to run Linux you can build yourself a x86 based system, with either an Intel or AMD processor, iGPU or dGPU, as much ram as you want, any drive you want, any monitor you want, any case you want, any power supply you want, you have full freedom and choice, which is one of the main selling selling points of Linux.

          If you buy a Mac, you are locked into the basic configuration Apple has decided to sell, with little chances for hardware upgrades and you are paying a premium for the hardware.

          The advantage that the Macs have is the OS, because whether the Linux faithful want to admit it or not, OSX is a way better OS than Linux will ever be, way more feature complete, more robust and there is a plethora of software for it that will never run on Linux.

          It also coded and optimized from the ground up to take full advantage of the underlying hardware, including the onboard hardware accelerators.

          With Asahi, there is no chance that the proprietary software that makes Macs an attractive option, like FCP, will ever run on it, so what is the point?

          The people behind Asahi remind me of the "review" Michael posted a while ago of the top of the line Platinum Xeons he was given he posted a bunch of benchmarks from his suite, including Bender, but he never looked at the 16 on board accelerators each processor has that is the main reason for their existence.

          I will close with this, there is also the possibility that the Asahi developers get sued by Apple for reverse engineering their patented designs, if Asahi ever gets out of the Alpha stage.

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          • Users to Asahi (the promoter of Linux for the most proprietary hardware platform *uhhhAPPLEmmm* in the world) - https://gist.github.com/probonopd/9f...5e3a9f2d1f2277

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            • Originally posted by kpedersen View Post
              • "xf86-video-modesetting" - Solved the issue of individual userspace drivers (in exactly the same way that Wayland backends do it).
              • "That was in 2015. And here's the problem: X was already dying by then." - Is just nonsense weasel speech. What is dying? Linux? Grow up.
              • "but modesetting couldn't even handle tear-free output until earlier this year (2023)" - Uhh... so its still solved then...
              That last point is particularly useful as evidence that Xorg is still very much in active development / improvement and is in no way nearing end of life.
              Also, the modesetting driver has been available for years for those who care. Yea, there was the tearing issue with the Intel driver, but for many it isn't that bad. It's annoying if you're watching full-screen movies from e.g. streaming services, but even there it's mostly and issue with action films with lots of vertical scrolling. Please note that many are also perfectly happy with the rainbow effects produced by DLP projectors. X supports the modern KMS stack, modern input stack, etc. One annoyance is the lack of support for rootless X in many cases.

              Wayland starts to really shine once stuff like explicit sync, HDR, VRR, and color calibration is 100% functional and available out of the box. There's also still work left bringing full video acceleration, vulkan based 3d rendering, etc. to the masses. Heck, I think Chrome/Chromium still doesn't support 100% accelerated video decoding + rendering.

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              • Originally posted by evasb View Post
                Xorg "defenders" love to write about how Wayland is the worst thing that happened in Linux. Imagine if this amount of characters were written adding features and maintaining Xorg.
                What features are you talking about?

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                • Originally posted by asriel View Post
                  Same as wayland architects and developers - they are not engineers, they are generators of bullshit. And about Xorg - ok, that's old stuff designed by engineers who knew how to develop software well, but do not have a siingle chance to produce so much selling bullshit as waylanders do.
                  You're a clueless rude ungrateful piece of shit.

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                  • Originally posted by skierpage View Post
                    You're a clueless rude ungrateful piece of shit.
                    Why is he ungrateful? Much of the community feel that Wayland is actively damaging to Linux.

                    If someone shot you, you wouldn't say "gee thanks for the free bullet" would you?

                    This isn't the Microsoft or Apple communities. We don't bend over and thank our masters for whatever piece of crap they ram down our throats. We state our views. If you feel they are wrong, then you are simply on the other side of the fence with your opinion.

                    My gripe on this thread isn't really Wayland vs Xorg, it is more that someone in a position of publicity is using it to spread FUD (discussed above). Personally if the community ends up with an awesome Xorg implementation *and* an awesome set of Wayland compositors, all of us are winners. Instead people are misusing this whole situation as a highschool debate society and a bollocks popularity contest and those people should STFU, regardless of who they are.
                    Last edited by kpedersen; 16 May 2023, 07:15 AM.

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                    • Originally posted by t1r0nama View Post

                      What features are you talking about?
                      None. X11 is complete, obviously, like TempleOS. 🥹

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