Microsoft Is Writing Its Own Wayland Compositor As Part Of WSL2 GUI Efforts

[mdedetrich]

That's just bad engineering, as far as I'm concerned. By and large the Linux kernel is pretty good quality, but I really think that not having a hard separation between drivers and the rest of the kernel is bad engineering/bad strategy. In order to separate drivers in their own memory protection domain, for instance, you need to start with an ABI separation.

Well Linux like most hybrid kernels has the concept of dynamically loading and restarting Kernel modules (NVidia for example is a Kernel module). Also it does have an ABI in the theoretical sense, the problem is that its internal and can change at any time so there is no point in coding against it on the assumption that it will stay stable for any non trivial period of time. There are also other things like GPL license to consider here (although one can make the argument that if Linux was a microkernel it wouldn't be a legal problem so it can be said its also the result of a technical decision).

The biggest issue though is it just doesn't play well with drivers that are closed source, for Android this is pretty much almost every medium/high end phone, and for Desktop this is NVidia. Set up this way, Linux expects all drivers to be open sourced and mainlined in the Kernel.

Note there are positives as well, having all of the drivers mainlined as source code and part of the Kernel means that theoretically speaking hardware can be supported indefinitely. If the source code of the drivers are part of the Kernel, they can be updated if there are any major changes to the Kernel. Although ABI's by nature are designed to last, they never last forever. For example Windows completely changed their graphics ABI in Vista (which is what caused those dreaded graphics blue screen crashes 13 years ago) and due to this graphics cards that are older are unlikely to be support, or well at all. Conversely though, Linux has dropped support for old hardware as well so its not that black and white.

[vladpetric]

Well Linux like most hybrid kernels has the concept of dynamically loading and restarting Kernel modules (NVidia for example is a Kernel module). Also it does have an ABI in the theoretical sense, the problem is that its internal and can change at any time so there is no point in coding against it on the assumption that it will stay stable for any non trivial period of time. There are also other things like GPL license to consider here (although one can make the argument that if Linux was a microkernel it wouldn't be a legal problem so it can be said its also the result of a technical decision).

The biggest issue though is it just doesn't play well with drivers that are closed source, for Android this is pretty much almost every medium/high end phone, and for Desktop this is NVidia. Set up this way, Linux expects all drivers to be open sourced and mainlined in the Kernel.

Note there are positives as well, having all of the drivers mainlined as source code and part of the Kernel means that theoretically speaking hardware can be supported indefinitely. If the source code of the drivers are part of the Kernel, they can be updated if there are any major changes to the Kernel. Although ABI's by nature are designed to last, they never last forever. For example Windows completely changed their graphics ABI in Vista (which is what caused those dreaded graphics blue screen crashes 13 years ago) and due to this graphics cards that are older are unlikely to be support, or well at all. Conversely though, Linux has dropped support for old hardware as well so its not that black and white.

Yeap, if my understanding is correct kernel modules are dynamically loadable ELF objects. Fundamentally they're not that different from .so's (though obviously, .ko's can only be loaded in the kernel, whereas .so's are meant for user processes, through ld). They can also link against any exported kernel symbol they desire.

Is that what you mean by ABI, or something that I'm missing?

[aht0]

aht0
I have to take a look at this.

When you have more time in your hands:
Grab Win10 iso from net. Modify the iso itself (get rid of built-in apps in their entirety). For this get MSMG Toolkit (https://msmgtoolkit.in/) and NTLite (https://www.ntlite.com/download)

With NTLite you can remove variants of Win from the iso you don't need (they tend to come as bundles: like Home, Pro, Pro N etc in one iso). With NTLite you can remove versions unnecessary for your own use. Then apply the changes and close the program. Then with the help of MSMG Toolkit modify the iso in the ways you like: remove telemetry-related crap, built-in apps, add various tweaks, add new hardware drivers into iso et cetera.
Iso files you are altering can be found in their unpacked form from one of the sub-folders (/mount)- wherever you unpacked MSMG Toolkit.
I've been also baking installers for my "always need that"-software into said iso - Default User/Public Documents/ is a good spot. After fresh install everything I need can be found already present and it comes down to only running installers in a sequence to install everything I need. Including Open-Shell. That way I never need to use that default UI Start Menu.
I've also baked PeerBlock into my "custom iso" with included blocklists. With some effort that OS can be made quite usable right from the fresh install.

[down1]

To a degree I agree with you. In it's original form Windows UI is trash, Start Menu and Apps portion are effin' annoying. Worse, it keeps changing here and there and being re-designed for the sheer fun of it (or so it feels).

Have you seen GNOME???? It has changed more in 5 years than windows has in 20!

[JackLilhammers]

To have an usable system there were changes needed to be done. The last major change is to replace Xorg. Nobody who's seeing leech company as a treat is living in the past. There's still enterprise where MS tries to hold.

That's not true.
I'm not discussing the specific changes, that usually are good, and will always need fixing and refining, as any new technology.
But linux was pretty usable even without them. That's a fact. You can take any distro that doesn't use systemd (that btw I like) and wayland, and it will work fairly well.
Not just well, in many cases Xorg still is the better option, or the only working one.

I don't think Microsoft is still a threat, they have their agenda, like any other big corp. Even Red Hat.

[Volta]

JackLilhammers
Well, you're right. It's very usable with X. I wasn't clear. What I meant is X makes many things hard to implement. There were a lot of efforts put to make it more secure. With Wayland it should be much easier to bring modern features to Linux.

[Volta]

aht0
Thanks! It seems it's great possibility to make it more usable and save my time for future installations. Not only for me, but for others I'm installing and configuring it.

[Mez']

My mum has a pro series spectre HP laptop at 2.5k and she has been using Windows without any crashes (I would know if it crashed because I am always first line of contact when something "slightly wrong" happens.) I personally have a 3.8k Thinkpad laptop that is running Windows without a single crash either (and this is with more exotic hardware, i.e. an OLED screen which funnily enough LInux has problems handling).

I am assuming one of the following is happening

1. You are installing some really weird stuff on your laptop which is causing the crash
2. You have some crappy hardware plugged into the laptop that is causing the crash (or you did some weird hardware specific stuff to the laptop).
3. You are bullshitting to make a point. Considering you were claiming before that it was Windows laptops at your company and now you are talking about your personal laptop I think this scenario is somewhat likely.

I am generally curious, post the screenshot of the crash you are experiencing. Also did you install updates?

1. I don't have admin rights. And I didn't on previous missions where it also crashed.
2. All I have is a headset for conf calls, and a mouse.
3. I don't want to go into the burden of uploading a picture just for your sake, but it was so MS that I took one.
It just says that it has encountered an issue and has to restart. With some percentage building up until it actually rebooted.
Here's where the QR code leads me to...

https://support.microsoft.com/en-ca/help/14238/windows-10-troubleshoot-blue-screen-errors

Yes, it is a Windows laptop at my company. I was talking about personal desktop and laptop where Linux is installed. I was pretty clear and you really got yourself confused. I haven't had Windows installed at home since 2010. And I haven't used it at home since 2008 (2 years where I only booted Linux before realizing I really didn't need to keep Windows as backup).

Anyway, only computer enthusiasts pay the kind of money your mother and you paid for a laptop here in Europe. Most people buy their laptop in the range of 500€ and 1000€. Of course some people with means who want good quality (especially for on-the-go, or gamers) will buy a more expansive machine, and definitely companies. Not John Doe.
I'm not even sure mainstream manufacturer's lines include 3.8 k€ laptop (or whatever equivalent in € from your machine's worth). I'll stick to what I say, most average people wont pay for such high-end devices on a personal level.

[Danielsan]

Before Linux was a cancer and now Linux has a cancer...

[Mez']

• According to web clients its 0.8%
• According to net market share its 2.06%
• According to gaming machines surveyed its 0.6%

So yeah, keep on digging. Its no way in hell "at least 2%". 2% is the max (if you take one survey).

Those surveys, btw, tend to miss a lot of government/corporations which predominantly are also pure windows.

duby229 mdedetrich

Just to come back to this, given the latest news that NetMarketShare is reporting a 3% Linux usage over its last reported month (2% over a year) and 2% for the sole Ubuntu (last month).

Statcounter says 1.68% for May. I do really believe it's safe to assume the Linux market share is around 2% (might be 1.75%, please don't nitpick).