AMD Ryzen 6000 Series Mobile CPUs Feature Microsoft's Pluton Security

[deusexmachina]

Turns out basically all "industry experts" are shills and can't recognize beginner-level "security through obscurity" practices.

[halo9en]

I was eagerly waiting for the new amd chips, but I'm not that sure anymore. If that M$ sh*t (remotely accessible TPM and platform "security") can be turned off 100% without having to resort to something akin to me_cleaner, fine. If not, I'll keep my money and start looking for non-x86 alternatives.

[halo9en]

ZDNet: "At CES, Lenovo unveiled its Ryzen-6000-based ThinkPad Z series laptops running Windows 11, which will integrate the Microsoft Pluton processor. The coming ThinkPad Z series laptops will begin shipping in May 2022. Thanks to Pluton, these devices will be able to receive updated firmware using Windows Update."

[qarium]

The right sentiment, but not quite accurate. Somewhere between 5 and 15% of the population are absolute predators: narcissists, sociopaths, psychopaths. They view everybody who is not like them to be their prey, a resource to be consumed, they view morality and decency as weaknesses to be exploited to their advantage. You will know these people because they aspire to be manager, CEO, congressman/parliamentarian, millionaire, billionaire and trillionaire, or street corner con-man or gang-banger if they cannot get a better gig. They seek to fill their ranks with other people like them, not because they can trust each other, but because they can trust each other not to snitch.

THESE PEOPLE seek power and use it for corrupt purposes, power does not corrupt them. These are the same people who spend their entire lives conspiring against everybody and everything, then gaslight anybody who suggests conspiracies exist to be a "tinfoil hat wearing conspiracy theorist".

In the case of Pluton, it's NSA_KEY 2.0 or the acquisition and "centralization" of Skype, sociopath Bill Gates and Microsoft are very willing partners to the "national security" sociopaths. Pluton 100% will have a backdoor in it that somebody other than the intended exploiter will eventually exploit. Even on the off chance that Lisa Su is one of the few CEOs without a personality disorder, they would have made her an offer she cannot refuse. But the sociopaths would love for you to believe it's just "power corrupting like it always does, an inescapable force of nature", as if it's unreasonable to expect moral behavior from those in power.

exactly... but be aware that with conspirancy theories like that they start to target you on phoronix.com

i know this in advance from like 14 years of experience on phoronix.com

also be aware of the fact that these people do make science studies that proof these people "predators: narcissists, sociopaths, psychopaths." do not go high in the rang of the coprative and government world.... (I try to find that article again...)

[Avamander]

Ignoring the few quite unhinged comments in this thread and looking at the general tonality - why is the reaction to Pluton so much more negative than it has been to Intel ME, AMD PSP and Intel SGX so far? It's very much seems like what we've had for years, just under the same label and equally as unfree.

Seems to me quite a few are late to the party, the metaphorical cake has been eaten.

[Lbibass]

They dont need it tbh. Just bought a 2020 m1 macbook air for when Im OOO. completely demolishes the other halves top of the line $3000 2021 windows laptop in every imaginable way and was more than half the price.

Linux desktop, mac laptop. very happy.

I'm in a similar boat. M1 Max 16" really doesn't have that many competitors when it comes to performance and battery life. I mean, yeah. You'll get Windows laptops which can compete in performance, but lugging around a 300W power brick and a 6-7lb monster that has to max out the fans to do anything just doesn't interest me. Plus: macOS is similar enough to linux in the bits that matter, which is nice.

[BreezeDM]

Ignoring the few quite unhinged comments in this thread and looking at the general tonality - why is the reaction to Pluton so much more negative than it has been to Intel ME, AMD PSP and Intel SGX so far? It's very much seems like what we've had for years, just under the same label and equally as unfree.

Seems to me quite a few are late to the party, the metaphorical cake has been eaten.

I can turn off or partially disable PSP and IME. I am trusting AMD or Intel that they are disabled. I am also trusting they aren't adding something else nefarious without telling us to the CPU so this level of trust is acceptable to me. If either company betrayed this trust, I could go to the other one. With Pluton, my trust needs to be with Microsoft. Microsoft is an extremely incompetent company that does nothing well. If you removed all Microsoft products from the world today, the world would be a better place. Microsoft is also a company known for its unethical and evil business practices. There are two security risks here: incompetence and malevolence.

PSP and IME are not required by any software outside of the management software needed to use them. I don't need them for games, online streaming, operating systems, or other software. Since Pluton emulates the TPM, it is required to use Windows 11. I most likely will not be able to disable it. This is just the start. Once most CPUs have Pluton, it will start to be required in more places like games, streaming services, and other software. Since Intel, Qualcomm, and AMD are all going to use Pluton, it will be easier to force this requirement. The processor companies like this idea too since it forces you to buy a Pluton processor when it happens. Then Pluton 2.0 will come out and they'll be forced to upgrade again. The number of shitty things that can happen from this far eclipse PSP or IME which is having a disabled/unused portion of your CPU that has proprietary firmware on it.

[Avamander]

I am trusting AMD or Intel that they are disabled.
With Pluton, my trust needs to be with Microsoft.

So now you're trusting AMD or Intel that Microsoft's component can be disabled. There's no practical difference.

PSP and IME are not required by any software outside of the management software needed to use them. I don't need them for games, online streaming, operating systems, or other software. Once most CPUs have Pluton, it will start to be required in more places like games, streaming services, and other software. Since Intel, Qualcomm, and AMD are all going to use Pluton

But you've skipped past SGX and ARM TrustZone alongside SafetyNet. The DRM you're describing is **already here**. There are phones turned obsolete because their attestation keys get revoked, or they don't meet enhanced requirements. I find it an inevitable that something like that will be deployed and in the future, required on desktop PCs as well. Seems irrelevant to who has made it. Logical progression of Digital Restrictions Management and again seems like past restrictions have flown past you.

Since Pluton emulates the TPM, it is required to use Windows 11.

Or any other equivalent TPM, and there are bypasses to the requirement.

The number of shitty things that can happen from this far eclipse PSP or IME which is having a disabled/unused portion of your CPU that has proprietary firmware on it.

No, they absolutely don't, PSP and IME are higher-privilege.

I don't understand why you're framing existing invasive tech any better than Pluton, there's a subtle hint of copium.

[BreezeDM]

Logical progression of Digital Restrictions Management and again seems like past restrictions have flown past you.

So now you're trusting AMD or Intel that Microsoft's component can be disabled. There's no practical difference.

There is a third party involved. Huge difference. The third party is an untrusted and incompetent company with a history of security failures that I would never buy a product from. I really shouldn't need to explain why Microsoft has a bad reputation to anyone in this forum. In addition if both companies use the same product, what incentive do they have to make sure it works as intended? If it doesn't work as intended, all companies would be equally affected.

There's no practical difference. ... Seems irrelevant to who has made it.

Most of us rational people in the developed world believe in the concept of quality. It matters who you buy your meat from, which car you buy, which doctor you chose, etc. I store important documents in a safety deposit box from a reputable bank and don't give them to a homeless man on the street corner for safe keeping.

Or any other equivalent TPM, and there are bypasses to the requirement.

For now. It is just the first step. Do you not know the history of Microsoft?

No, they absolutely don't, PSP and IME are higher-privilege.

I can effectively disable PSP and IME and there are no requirements to use it.

I don't understand why you're framing existing invasive tech any better than Pluton, there's a subtle hint of copium.

Your absolutism is beyond ridiculous. Since we accepted PSP/IME we should accept something even worse? Sounds like you are willing to accept any invasive tech because we accepted some in the past. Why are you here? Go use Windows and let them install rootkits then.

[Avamander]

Most of us rational people in the developed world believe in the concept of quality. It matters who you buy your meat from, which car you buy, which doctor you chose, etc. I store important documents in a safety deposit box from a reputable bank and don't give them to a homeless man on the street corner for safe keeping.

Quality backdoors sure are better.

Your absolutism is beyond ridiculous. Since we accepted PSP/IME we should accept something even worse? Sounds like you are willing to accept any invasive tech because we accepted some in the past.

I haven't said you have to welcome it in open arms or even like it, but I doubt there's much you can do against it. PSP and IME both still exist.

In the end all I'm saying that it's really surprising to me that people here couldn't see the writing on the wall much earlier and act surprised, especially considering what happened with SafetyNet and similar.