Steam On Linux Use Ticked Higher In May, 25% Of Linux Gamers Are Using The Steam Deck

[avis]

...

A metric ton of Win32 API calls have no direct alternatives in POSIX and Linux specific syscalls (though Wine strives to be POSIX compatible). I'd even venture to say the vast majority of them and Wine does a metric ton of work to make those calls run in Linux. If that's not emulation/translation/whatever, then yes, I'm a fucking moron. You've won the argument. Take a cookie and be happy.

Look at the fucking source code under Wine's tree in the directory called loader. It's not even huge. You can read it and comprehend it in an hour, even if you're not very experienced with C. There's nothing magic there. No CPU emulation or any hacks.

I've never meant CPU emulation. The hell are you dragging this completely unrelated point to our argument for the second time now?? I perfectly know what [CPU] "emulation" is, and we're not dealing with it here. It's not limited to CPU translation either, in fact CPU emulation is exceedingly rare because it's super ineffective. What people usually mean by emulation is normally OS emulation within the same CPU uArch, aka ISA (whoa, did you know I know such words?) - VirtualBox, kvm, VMWare WS/ESXi, etc. But Win32 API is completely alien to Linux and forever will be. No amount of weaseling is going to change it.

Remember how you claimed that Direct3D is more native (no, you just said "it is native") to Linux than it is to Windows. Another piece of pristine baloney. I wonder why DXVK is ~100KLOC if Direct3D in Linux is so fucking native.

Wine is over SIX MILLION lines of code, that's how Win32 API is native to Linux. Just don't tell this to Alexandre Julliard - he'll have a heart attack.

system services in Linux land, btw they're userspace

OMG, you just cannot stop insulting me. You probably believe that I think that if something runs in ... background and it's "system" it's running at ring level 0 (whoa, did you know I know such words?). You really think I'm a dumb fuck. That's just utter cringe.

The truth is you love baloney, admit it.

And "I have no fucking idea what I'm talking about", you're right.

And lastly you just cannot stop insulting me and throwing a ton of ad hominem at me. You know when people do that? It's when they have no arguments. God, you've completely lost it, you never had a single rebuttal and you simply started being aggressive and using a hella lot of swear words. Yeah, that made you "right". Congratulations.

[qarium]

I'm a C/C++ software dev (my fucking job) and I'm semi familiar with the Linux kernel, loader, and the Wine code.
Who the hell are you again?
Yeah, you. You're the fanatic with zero facts. Where's your freaking proofs for anything you've said to back it up? You've said NOTHING to ever back up your claims.
Yeah, the caller is userspace. So a loader that calls a system call is still a userspace library dumbass. i.e. Wine can do it just as well as your fucking "magical" native loader ld-linux.so.
Look at the fucking source code under Wine's tree in the directory called loader. It's not even huge. You can read it and comprehend it in an hour, even if you're not very experienced with C. There's nothing magic there. No CPU emulation or any hacks.
Or keep living in delusion because you're like a religious nutjob who clings to bullshit beliefs instead of facts.
Once you've read that piece of code, come back and tell me what part of it is non-native. I want to know.
Userspace. (the kernel passes it back to the registered userspace handler, this happens in any OS)
Actually daemons can do that, yeah. (system services in Linux land, btw they're userspace).
Task scheduler is typically userspace daemon.
Signals are sent by the kernel but Windows does not have the Unix concept of signals so that's irrelevant here.
IPC is just system calls done from userspace. It's nothing less "native" than calling a memory mapper API (allocator in low level terms). Are you saying memory allocation is special and non-native?
You're not special. I respect your (non-technical) contributions of bug reports, but your ego is through the roof.
Sometimes it's time to admit you have no fucking idea of what you're talking about to people more qualified than you. Grow up.

avis/Birdie is known for extrem Hostility agaist the Open-Source community and no one knows why he is like this.

but as i unterstand this topic anti-cheat with linux or any other Operating System is technically obsolete because modern
modern artificial intelligence tools could detect any kind of cheat on the server side.

any kind of successfull cheat like Aim-Bot would in the end benefit the cheater means better scores means more kills less deaths and better kill/death radio and so one and so one. this means if a artificial intelligence anti-cheat tool would observe the statistical data it could always proof that this gameplay is not "normal" and a ban would be automatically the case.

this fact alone could make any anti-cheat compatibility problem with linux obsolete and if successfully implemented it would end the age of cheating in computer games.

you just need to perform deep learning on a lot of gamers who are known not to cheat that should not be a problem and then anything what ends up with different data than that is automatically banned.

such AI tools maybe would not work instandly and need to oberse you a longer time but it could be painfull for cheaters lose paid accounts and so one.

[Weasel]

A metric ton of pristine bullcrap and completely unrelated stuff any programmer on stackoverflow dot com or news dot ycombinator dot com (I hate how vBulletin nowadays expands links) will laugh off and call lunacy.

I'm a C/C++ software dev (my fucking job) and I'm semi familiar with the Linux kernel, loader, and the Wine code.

Who the hell are you again?

I'm not even going to attempt to argue with this any longer. It's akin to arguing with religious people: they destroy logic with conviction. So do you. Will skip your comments from now on.

Yeah, you. You're the fanatic with zero facts. Where's your freaking proofs for anything you've said to back it up? You've said NOTHING to ever back up your claims.

System calls execute themselves

Yeah, the caller is userspace. So a loader that calls a system call is still a userspace library dumbass. i.e. Wine can do it just as well as your fucking "magical" native loader ld-linux.so.

Look at the fucking source code under Wine's tree in the directory called loader. It's not even huge. You can read it and comprehend it in an hour, even if you're not very experienced with C. There's nothing magic there. No CPU emulation or any hacks.

Or keep living in delusion because you're like a religious nutjob who clings to bullshit beliefs instead of facts.

Once you've read that piece of code, come back and tell me what part of it is non-native. I want to know.

page faults are handled by angels

Userspace. (the kernel passes it back to the registered userspace handler, this happens in any OS)

binaries are read and parsed by daemons

Actually daemons can do that, yeah. (system services in Linux land, btw they're userspace).

tasks are scheduled by stray souls, signals, IPC, networking, memory management (including mapping and protection), code execution rings, devices communication, yeah, the kernel does nothing. Binaries simply run. LMAO.

Task scheduler is typically userspace daemon.

Signals are sent by the kernel but Windows does not have the Unix concept of signals so that's irrelevant here.

IPC is just system calls done from userspace. It's nothing less "native" than calling a memory mapper API (allocator in low level terms). Are you saying memory allocation is special and non-native?

You're not special. I respect your (non-technical) contributions of bug reports, but your ego is through the roof.

Sometimes it's time to admit you have no fucking idea of what you're talking about to people more qualified than you. Grow up.

[avis]

I don't care what you consider native

The Linux kernel doesn't execute shit

many apps generate code at runtime (JIT)

A metric ton of pristine bullcrap and completely unrelated stuff any programmer on stackoverflow dot com or news dot ycombinator dot com (I hate how vBulletin nowadays expands links) will laugh off and call lunacy. I'm not even going to attempt to argue with this any longer. It's akin to arguing with religious people: they destroy logic with conviction. So do you. Will skip your comments from now on.

System calls execute themselves, page faults are handled by angels, binaries are read and parsed by daemons, tasks are scheduled by stray souls, signals, IPC, networking, memory management (including mapping and protection), code execution rings, devices communication, yeah, the kernel does nothing. Binaries simply run. LMAO.

Have a nice day!

[avis]

VAC documents at last count 14000 hypervisors they have to check for that cheaters have made all have windows claiming secureboot is enabled. Cheat developers are very active people.

First things first, what "VAC documents"? URL please. Authored by Valve please.

https://www.google.com/search?q=CSGO+VAC+hypervisor finds nothing, nada, zero, zilch.

For Christ's sake, don't try to look and sound smart with your verbiage rich long paragraphs looking like arguments. Doesn't work with me.

I need fucking proofs. If there are 14000 hypervisor cheats, Google must be able to find at least a couple. The hell I cannot find a single one? Maybe you've got access to something which Google/Bing/Yandex/Baidu don't index?

[qarium]

Because it is? You have to write your own driver implementation to make sure its safe against detection. But if you sell it, there is always chance to get ban. Apex Legends allowed linux users to play the game but turns out it does not the protect the game against cheaters as well as it does windows. Here is one example.
Honestly, I don't surprised at all. It's clearly shows what kind of mindset you have.

what mindset do i have ?

people always mix up linux support in general and special device based on linux like the steam deck.

you maybe can not make linux in general save but of course you can produce a device who is completely closed to make sure no one cheats.

also modern AI technology make any clind side anti-cheat protection obsolete because the AI by statistic analysis alone can detect any cheater.

[krunky]

valve could make the steam deck complete closed that you can change nothing and Birdie/Avis would still claim that you can cheat on linux and windows is the superior solution for anti-cheat.

Because it is? You have to write your own driver implementation to make sure its safe against detection. But if you sell it, there is always chance to get ban. Apex Legends allowed linux users to play the game but turns out it does not the protect the game against cheaters as well as it does windows. Here is one example.

valve could make the steam deck complete closed that you can change nothing and Birdie/Avis would still claim that you can cheat on linux and windows is the superior solution for anti-cheat.

Honestly, I don't surprised at all. It's clearly shows what kind of mindset you have.

[Weasel]

What DirectDraw? What does DirectDraw have to do anything with our discussion for Christ's sake? It's an old API for 2D graphics in Windows. Games rarely if ever used it. The API has effectively been dead for ages, for almost two decades now. Why did you even bring it to this discussion?

Because DirectDraw converts all calls and is implemented these days on top of newer Direct3D versions? (it's implementation dependent, but I wouldn't be surprised if it's implemented on top of D3D12 for example)

What is the difference between that and implementing D3D11 on top of Vulkan? (DXVK)

Why is the latter less "native"?

Give me actual logical reply, not bullshit like "it has nothing to do with it". It's a perfect comparison. You don't know anything about how software is built. it seems.

Wine DLLs being implemented as Windows compatible PE modules does not make Win32 API native to Linux.

I don't care what you consider native. For those DLLs (that have no unix calls, i.e. their entire implementation is into the .DLL itself), the code path is the same as on Windows. Period.

For me that makes it native, from a technical and software point of view, not hocus pocus.

libwine.so still translates Win32 API to POSIX API.

That's mainly used for winelib apps... lol. i.e. apps "ported" from Wine to Unix (it's basically like how AutoHotkey can generate a self-executing exe, it still ships the interpreter and everything, it just bundles it easily for people who don't have AutoHotkey or Wine installed).

It's never even used by PE DLLs. Only unix parts. (there's some, but those are more along the lines of "kernel space" stuff, like Vulkan for example, or X11 or display drivers, etc)

You clearly have no idea what you're talking about.

A ton of Win32 API calls have no equivalents in Linux and vice versa. libwine cannot possibly become a Windows application, as the Linux kernel has no idea how to execute PE (portable executable) files. There's so much complete baloney in your post, I'm just speechless.

The Linux kernel doesn't execute shit. WTF you talking about? The kernel can load .so modules, but that's a kernel thing. That's not used for userspace mapping or loading of libraries.

In userspace, the so loader (ld-linux.so) is a userspace component that maps the .so files. Wine has a loader that does the same thing by mapping DLLs. Both are in userspace (they do use the kernel-space mmap API but that API is completely generic and can map anything, it's not related to loader).

You can write your own fucking library format and your own loader in your own userspace app.

BTW, many apps generate code at runtime (JIT) on ALL platforms, are you saying those aren't native because of your hocus pocus logic? Please. Obviously generating code at runtime means they must load them themselves and map them after generating.

I will not argue with any further as I value my sanity a lot more than trying to right the wrong-thinking of others. I've done this before - it doesn't work.

"DirectX under Windows is/uses emulation, Proton is better". I'm out. This is madness.

Have a nice day.

Well at this point it's clearly you have no technical basis and don't know what you're talking about and are here just to spread hatred or misinformation on topics you obviously have no clue of.

[qarium]

Competitive multiplayer is not "the thing" in Steam Deck community AFAIK. Also, Valve people can always rework security mechanisms if they choose to do so. This anti-cheat discourse is an ordinary meltdown of birdie/avem/avis, because SD is AMD SoC based device with Linux inside and open source community likes it. Ergo, birdie/avem/avis must come to comments, write provocative bullshit and complain about FOSS "toxicity" afterwards.

exactly you are right... Birdie/Avis always claims people hate him for the facts he tells us but people do not hate him because of this instead they hate him because of his hostility agaist the opensource community.

valve could make the steam deck complete closed that you can change nothing and Birdie/Avis would still claim that you can cheat on linux and windows is the superior solution for anti-cheat.

how many people do even cheat on the steam deck? as you said: "Competitive multiplayer is not "the thing" in Steam Deck community AFAIK" the number is maybe "zero"

but people like Birdie/Avis don't care they do not like AMD they do not like Linux they are deep state players who have money invested in stocks like microsoft and nvidia and so one. they drive on egoism and want profit from their egozentric world view.

if linux and amd is successfull with the steam deck their stocks of evil companies like Nvidia and microsoft go down thats the reason why they are active and fight agaist it.

[pmorph]

Let's call this DXVK/Wine gaming under Linux..

You mean DXVK/Wine gaming under GNU/Linux?
Good luck with that initiative.