Arch-Based Manjaro Users Express Concern Over Update Strategy

[brosis]

Your argument falls on deaf ears.

Are you really suggesting that Antergos isn't easier or as stable as Manjaro?

Because the reality is that Antergos eclipsed Manjaro a long time ago and only people left skeptical are those who swear by Manjaro without realizing its flaws, lack of Arch compatibility, and lack of choice.

It's not my fault you haven't heard about Antergos. Maybe you just aren't imaginative enough in your choice of distros.

I am just looking at:

http://distrowatch.com/table.php?distribution=antergos

and

http://distrowatch.com/table.php?distribution=manjaro

and I dont understand who has eclipsed whom here, right from top to through out the entire table.

Also, define what you mean with "arch compatibility"? These are Arch packages, but with cherrypicked versions for base system. The Arch?s AUR is working directly on Manjaro.

[brosis]

First, I use the both, Arch on desktop and TP X-61 and Manjaro on TP X-200. I use Arch for some 9 years with quite a satisfaction. On desktop, I have facing issue with Cups and Avahi dependency leading to failure of the both. Manjaro (pure without Arch repo packages) works as I expect with no issue. Well, I am more experimenting on my desktop installation but why there is no problem with Manjaro at all? I can mix packages from Manjaro repos with those from Arch repos, but why to do that when there is no practical reason to do that? Arch is more configurable and is based on skilled back-reporting of issues by users to developers and maintainers. Arch users are more less aware testers of the latest RC SW because many "stable" packages are customised git or RC versions. I wonder why the both communities doesn't cooperate in more polite, product improving and security guaranting envirnoment? No response on bugs and security issues by Manjaro developers and maintainers would be very risky for all the Manjaro community!

We ARE cooperating.
This is a matrix: Arch (sane), Arch (asshats); Manjaro (sane), Manjaro (other*). Arch(sane) are cooperating with Manjaro(sane). Asshats from Arch should be plainly ignored. Manjaro has no asshats, because its less "elite" distro than Arch per definition, Manjaro users do not surf in same waves - so the chance of ego build-up is much lower, as we simply *use* what fits into our goal.

Personally I will be reporting a bug in software if it surfaces, but I refuse to wait another week till the breakage is finally fixed and spread upstream or to experience a constant flood of upgrades with consequences. What is so damn hard to understand about the need of a fresh stable machine, is beyond my understanding.

Dialog between Cowboy A to cowboy M
A: Its time for you to be a man and join the wild codeboys gang. Take these horses right now and stop embarassing yourself.
M: But I just want just to carry my stuff safely and speedy home.
A: Why not to use these cutting edge crazy black horses instead of the older nags? They are less vulnerable.
M: Because I don?t want my stuff lost when they drop me off in the middle of the desert or having to regularly tame them into obedience.
A: But it impresses the girls and gives you the challenge to pump your own ego. // demonstrates giant calluses on his buttocks
M: This is great, but I want just my stuff home safe and speedy.
(dialog loops here)

[LLStarks]

I am just looking at:

http://distrowatch.com/table.php?distribution=antergos

and

http://distrowatch.com/table.php?distribution=manjaro

and I dont understand who has eclipsed whom here, right from top to through out the entire table.

Also, define what you mean with "arch compatibility"? These are Arch packages, but with cherrypicked versions for base system. The Arch?s AUR is working directly on Manjaro.

Why even do the cherrypicking and have dedicated Manjaro mirrors?

It's a duplication of effort that does nothing but lock people in outdated packages.

Wouldn't it be better if Manjaro used Arch mirrors and a tiny distro repo like Antergos does?

If anything, it seems that Manjaro treats Cinnamon like Ubuntu treats Unity. Sure, you could install another DE or use AUR/PPA to fill the gaps, but stability and package pinning turns to crap.

[dungeon]

One user use Manjaro just two months and half of that time there is no updates, wut

I don't use Manjaro or Arch, that does not matter... i don't really understand what kind of bullshit is this article about

[magika]

One user use Manjaro just two months and half of that time there is no updates, wut

I don't use Manjaro or Arch, that does not matter... i don't really understand what kind of bullshit is this article about

In Arch they dont freeze versions and backport stuff, they update packages as upstream gets new release. Manjaro takes Arch binary packages and tries to see if there is any breakage before pulling it in their repositories.
Since they take packages directly from Arch and dont rebuild stuff the best they can do is to delay update until result satisfies them, automatically delaying 0day fixes and leaving you ass vulnerable.

So users dont get backports like in classical scheme where you system get fully updated and breaks once in 6 months (full reinstall), nor they get a proper rolling release distro.

[souenzzo]

Why not

Help/Develop arch linux to make it more awesome.

With 2 easy steps:
1- Make your software, maybe a custom package instaler with a more complex dependency things (of course with pacman backend). Make it stable and modular to be accepted on arch repo.
2- Use archiso to build your live installer with a cool frontend.

[edoantonioco]

Why even do the cherrypicking and have dedicated Manjaro mirrors?

It's a duplication of effort that does nothing but lock people in outdated packages.

Wouldn't it be better if Manjaro used Arch mirrors and a tiny distro repo like Antergos does?

You have no idea what are you talking about. Google is your friend. Manjaro is not Antergos, it works different.

[LLStarks]

Yes, the way Manjaro works makes no sense.

You can't be the Ubuntu to Arch's Debian without the commitment and quality control to make it work.

I made the mistake of using Manjaro for a year. By the end, I had the same miseries that I felt back when I ran Mint.

Manjaro is an OS that lacks polish and purpose. It is a nightmare of scripts (mhwd in particular) that can't even stay current with GPU driver situations and hybrid graphics as they improve in closed-source drivers.

[Ayceman]

^^ Says Mr. Know-it-all. And it's not a duplication of efforts since it hardly requires any effort to pull Arch packages. How dense would someone have to be not to understand the purpose of a separate staggered set of repos?

2. The idea behind Manjaro is great - take the best rolling release, and turn it into a staggered release product. Problem is the Manjaro team itself is catastrophically understaffed and its userbase way too small for a two week grace period to work. Additionally, having such a grace period simply does not work for security vulnerabilities, which should not be following any staggered model - if something is exploitable, the patched version needs to be pushed immediately. Again, Manjaro just does not have the size or scale to do proper package management from upstream.

We're not really understaffed - sure anyone could use more testers, especially running different setups (DEs/WMs/compositors mainly), but the objective isn't to test even 10% of the packages that are inherited. That's frankly irrelevant. In fact, individual package testing is an accidental by-product of the system. If there's a major functionality bug with a common package, it will be noticed in either Arch stable, or Manjaro unstable/testing, if it isn't, it's no tragedy as we can push exceptional updates to stable. We're not locked in to any update system (boxit makes it very easy).

So, the point of the staggered repos, is not primarily to test packages, but to test the stability/usability of the entire thing and provide a buffer to insert our own stuff, including manjaro-system (which is supposed to eliminate cases of manual intervention before/during an update). The actual package management from upstream is a simple "boxit sync" -> "3" and that's it. What takes up the most time is stuff that is packaged by us, like kernels, Manjaro utils, misc utils pulled for our defaults, and the rare instance of packages that need a slight tweak from Arch. Recently it was mostly theming and the secondary openrc solution that took time.

Regarding security vulnerabilities, the vulnerable period is shorter in Manjaro, as stuff that is relevant enough to warrant attention is fasttracked to stable (which is ridiculously easy, as these cases are very rare). Even so, pretty much every "security fix" yet has been irrelevant unless you were running internet-facing services.

[dungeon]

In Arch they dont freeze versions and backport stuff, they update packages as upstream gets new release. Manjaro takes Arch binary packages and tries to see if there is any breakage before pulling it in their repositories.
Since they take packages directly from Arch and dont rebuild stuff the best they can do is to delay update until result satisfies them, automatically delaying 0day fixes and leaving you ass vulnerable.

So users dont get backports like in classical scheme where you system get fully updated and breaks once in 6 months (full reinstall), nor they get a proper rolling release distro.

Ah OK so it seems Manjaro is distro for youngsters, just like LMDE