Vim 9.1 Released With Smooth Scrolling, Support For Vim9 Classes

[shinger]

Huh? That's so non-obvious. Why isn't it the intuitive key sequence Esc colon lower-case-q exclamation mark?

The ED and TECO editors are ridiculously easy to leave: q, and <Escape><Escape>EX respectively. The level of intuitiveness in TECO is unbelievable.

Try it first then you see, what i am talking about .

I do it with one hand. Press ESC then hold LEFT SHIFT button with my left pinky finger and with my left middle finger i press zz twice. It will save and exit.

That is as fast as you can get instead of ESC wq!.

[muncrief]

vi was written in 1976, by Sun co-founder Bill Joy. vim is a vi clone. I used vi on Solaris, when I first started out. Once I discovered vim had unlimited undo (and redo), I was an instant convert.
....

Aahhh! You are so right about vi/vim my friend coder. It was so long ago that my memory of it is fading, I apologize for my error.

I do recall seeing vi around the time of emacs, though vim did appear some time later. In any case the arguments you forward in favor of vi are also familiar, and I recall some fervent disagreements about one editor being better or easier to use than the other.

But like most things I think it just comes down to personal preference and perception.

Thank you for jogging my memory and correcting the record, and I trust when I make similar mistakes in the future, and I'm sure I will, you will kick my old brain back upon the correct path

By the way, that book cover looks awful familiar, so I must have seen it floating around back then as well, though I don't believe it's the one I had or I would recall it more fervently. But still, it's pleasant to see again.

And yes, there were book stores open until 11, but I used to regularly work until 3 or 4 AM, sometimes even all night and into the next day. As for manpages, I think you misunderstood, I was speaking of hardware device information. And though we could indeed call companies like Intel and others and request specific data books be shipped ASAP, that didn't help in the wee hours of the morning

[User29]

... I have a hard time understanding why anyone would prefer it over alternatives.
...

I use vim because it's hardcoded in my nerves and fingers. I don't even have to think about how should I do what I want to do. My fingers just do it.

When I occasionally use vscode/codium, the first thing is to install the vim extension although it's slow.


We're not the same.

[schmidtbag]

Applied Mathematics is 'just' a tool.

Experts can sometimes make complicated things look simple to people who do not understand the the things. This does not mean the things are intrinsically simple, merely that the experts are good at what they do. Do not fall into the trap of thinking that a curated experience is representative of reality.

Agreed, but the difference here is applied mathematics doesn't have simpler alternatives that accomplish the same goal. Perhaps an expert in vim can, on average, work on a document in less time than an expert in another program with similar features, but that's hard to quantify since certain programs have distinct advantages in specific conditions, and two separate people aren't going to skin a cat the exact same way even if they're given the exact same tools. It's probably why QWERTY has never been replaced despite the fact it isn't the most comfortable or logical keyboard layout by modern standards - alternative layouts aren't necessarily good enough to convince the world to switch.

Efficiency. Command mode is both a concise way to tell the editor what you want to do and more closely matches the way we logically think about the task of editing.

Do you have an example where command mode does something more effectively than editors that lack it?

Yes, it has a learning curve. You need to invest a little time, before you see the payoff. It's unfortunate that "intuitive" got conflated with "good", in the software industry.

That is true, but as mentioned earlier, it's hard to say whether a vi* expert is noticeably more proficient to warrant the time it took to learn it. For those who used these editors 20+ years ago (when they were the ubiquitous CLI editor), obviously they might as well just keep using it, but I have a hard time seeing why anyone not familiar should bother to learn.

Think about programming languages. I'll bet you wouldn't say programming languages are only good if they are easy to learn!

You're right - I wouldn't say that, because generally speaking, the closer you get to bare-metal programming, the more refined you can make the code, assuming the developer has the proper skills. Sometimes low-level languages are worth the difficulty. However, I would say that some languages are objectively better than others.

This is a misguided critique. I'm sure you never looked at the contents of the book, to see just how much of it is about basic usage, vs. scripting, customization, and internals.

I feel like what you said only solidifies my point - if you need that many volumes and a book that large for basic usage and (if I'm understanding you correctly) it isn't about scripting, customization, and internals, then that really emphasizes how unintuitive vi* is. Contrast this to books like this one for VS Studio Code, which is 150 pages shorter yet it discusses a wide variety of somewhat tangential topics like .NET, git, AI, debugging, extensions, etc. Even if it didn't have all these other topics, the length difference really emphasizes how little it needs to explain to you while still having a similar level of capability.
For what it's worth, I'm not saying VSSC is better (I actually don't really like it) but it's a super popular and a very powerful tool.

Although vi has a steep learning curve, it's actually pretty small. You can be about 90% efficient after learning quite a small amount of it.

I agree - and as someone who likes efficiency, I do admire this about vi and its derivatives. However, editors like jed aren't that much more bloated yet do just about everything I would want out of vim. Of course, that's just personal preference.

I use vim because it's hardcoded in my nerves and fingers. I don't even have to think about how should I do what I want to do. My fingers just do it.

When I occasionally use vscode/codium, the first thing is to install the vim extension although it's slow.


We're not the same.

Yes, I've alluded to people like you. If you have the knowledge and skill to use it, you might as well. For those who don't, I have a hard time understanding why they'd want to get into it.

[coder]

I used to regularly work until 3 or 4 AM, sometimes even all night and into the next day.

Me too. There was an all-night grocery store near my office, and one thing I'd sometimes do is buy their discounted sushi & sashimi, then take it back to the office and pop it in the microwave. Okay, it wasn't raw, but hey it was fresh seafood and I never got sick that way.

All-nighters were too hard, the next day. I'd have to go home by noon, because I'd be useless by the time the next afternoon came around. I soon learned to bring an air mattress (i.e. the camping type that's about an inch thick and rolls up) and nap a few hours. A nap + caffeine is so much better than either one.

[coder]

It's probably why QWERTY has never been replaced despite the fact it isn't the most comfortable or logical keyboard layout by modern standards

I haven't used QWERTY in 25 years. I think it's funny to watch fast typists type on a QWERTY layout. It's just looks so dramatic and obviously inefficient. The times I've really felt superior were on a tiny keyboard that was almost too small for touch typing. If I were moving my hands around, I'd have almost certainly lost my positioning.

Do you have an example where command mode does something more effectively than editors that lack it?

Gosh, it's hard to say. It's not like one thing it does well, but a whole language you have that's (somewhat) optimized for what you're trying to do. Dashing out editing commands has become so second nature I almost have to do it and watch what my fingers are typing even to tell you some examples.

There are some terse little idioms, like xp, when I want to transpose letters. But, it's more like if I want to delete everything up until a certain word, I just type: d/word

VIM added some neat enhancements, like the ability to create a selection to act upon. That frees you from the limited vocabulary of nouns that it knows. You can still use those nouns to move the cursor, as you demarcate the region, but you can string together an arbitrary series, as movement commands.

That is true, but as mentioned earlier, it's hard to say whether a vi* expert is noticeably more proficient to warrant the time it took to learn it.

Are you serious?

I've been using it for over 20 years. I spend several hours per day, just editing text. It took me less than a week to gain reasonable proficiency with it. And that was just spending a couple hours/day reading and practicing. After that, I switched to vi full-time, and never looked back.

For those who used these editors 20+ years ago (when they were the ubiquitous CLI editor), obviously they might as well just keep using it, but I have a hard time seeing why anyone not familiar should bother to learn.

The last convert I won over was a kid, fresh out of college, about 10 years ago. He didn't take much convincing and quickly became even more proficient than I was.

I feel like what you said only solidifies my point - if you need that many volumes and a book that large for basic usage

You don't. All you really need to know about vi/vim fits on a quick reference card. Command mode uses single characters for nouns and verbs. There can't be many! And digits are modifiers, so they can't be either one.

Sure, there are other modes and features, but the main hangup most people have with vi is command mode.

Anyway, try looking at the book's table of contents. Within the first 100 pages, they get through all of the normal usage instructions, including ex and substitutions. And, of those, they finish with command mode after just 60 pages or so. After that, it gets into various customizations.

For those who don't, I have a hard time understanding why they'd want to get into it.

How long does a master craftsman spend learning their trade? Do you like being efficient at what you spend all day doing?

[timrichardson]

VIM, The only text editor I constantly never remeber how to save and exit from

If only there was an emoticon with keyboard short-cut :wq