Fedora Workstation 41 To No Longer Install GNOME X.Org Session By Default

[guglovich]

Good luck to the beta testers

[stargeizer]

Warning: I do use wayland, i don't have the problems most people here have, but i do understand frustration from the guys that needs to use older apps and those doesn't work well under wayland. And the following is mixed with some fairy tale language.

Is not like they hate the modern desktop experience (not much as i do, mind you) . I do agree that these guys aren't exactly the most sane people of the Earth (After all, almost all of them were xorg developers, so insanity is guaranteed), and the discussions about decorations, windowing positions, etc (and all the madness that normal people/developers would find irritanting) derives from the exposure to xorg code, so the disconnection from reality is also guaranteed.

That's why Other OS people just write new code, and just include the older for compatibility. Ex: Windows. Until windows XP they had the entire windows 3.1 OS code inside c:\windows for compatibility, and included the entire XP code for compatibility until windows 10, now they just removed compatibility for the old systems, and if you need classic software, yoy can run them in a virtual machine, since compatibility in windows 11 is guaranteed only up to windows vista nowadays (anything older is not guaranted to run, and will mostly not run at all).

Any solution for this problem?. Hardly. These guys already decided that everything should be a smartphone nowadays, and exposure to xorg code made them insane, so no real solution to this problem at this time.

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PS: Yeah, sounds crazy, but is not *that* far from reality as it seems. (And no, i haven't seen a single line of xorg code, but i've seen people exposed to it in the past... it seems emulating the seibu COP was far more sane that write xorg code... He that hath ears to hear, let him hear)

[dragon321]

It's weird, in Windows/MacOS/iOS/Android the display server is separate from the WM but Wayland thinks differently.

Since when? macOS uses Quartz Compositor that it's both display server and compositing window manager at the same time in one process (called WindowServer). Pretty much like any Wayland compositor. Most likely similar story on iOS since it is closely related to the macOS. As far I know same story in Android. Only Windows has separate window manager process due to great decision in the 90's to move GUI to the kernel which they couldn't change in Vista due to compatibility reasons so they moved to some mixed mess where they moved some things to the user space but kept rest in the kernel.

Having separate window manager process is pretty legacy thing (as proved by X11 or Windows) but no modern display server (or rather compositor) does same thing because it's useless and provides no significant benefits.

[avis]

Since when? macOS uses Quartz Compositor that it's both display server and compositing window manager at the same time in one process (called WindowServer). Pretty much like any Wayland compositor. Most likely similar story on iOS since it is closely related to the macOS. As far I know same story in Android. Only Windows has separate window manager process due to great decision in the 90's to move GUI to the kernel which they couldn't change in Vista due to compatibility reasons so they moved to some mixed mess where they moved some things to the user space but kept rest in the kernel.

Having separate window manager process is pretty legacy thing (as proved by X11 or Windows) but no modern display server (or rather compositor) does same thing because it's useless and provides no significant benefits.

Guess I'm stuck in the past, thanks for the new info. Still there's one, not 15+.

As for Android there's surfaceflinger and WindowManager, two distinct entities.

[Ghjnut]

Quite funny, you quote something I wrote about my own experience using GNOME on Wayland and you call it anecdotal. I am completely fine with that.

But then you share your own anecdotal experience, and even funnier, it's not even about the same subject. Good work.

lol, I was looking at this thinking the same thing

Xorg hasn't crashed on me on any of my systems (Intel/AMD/NVIDIA) in over 10 years now.
...

Anecdotal evidence is anecdotal and extremely popular among Linux fans.
...

Guess he's outing himself as a linux fan?

[avis]

Guess he's outing himself as a linux fan?

No one here has claimed Xorg is buggy/crashes often. I've not seen a single such message in years. Sorry for being the messenger for the silent majority.

KWin on the other hand still crashes a lot (189 open bugs as of today) but that's inconsequential under Xorg.

Anecdotal evidence is lost on you, unfortunately. I prefer not to use it ever.

[sophisticles]

What a great idea!

Please remember there are no bad ideas in the open source community and I for one look forward to what other fantastic ideas they come up with!

[mrg666]

What a great idea!

Please remember there are no bad ideas in the open source community and I for one look forward to what other fantastic ideas they come up with!

Trying sarcasm now? Such a weak attempt though. So good that you guys are feeling bad about this. I am just enjoying your loss. No sarcasm here. Enjoying the desktop improvements of Plasma 6 on Wayland too. What a wonderful day! Thank you for posting about your pain.

[dpeterc]

One less mountain of technical debt to maintain for most Linux graphics devs, though that definitely means popcorn on Phoronix forums.

avis Would you mind taking up maintainership of X.Org server? I heard you have a very good understanding of Xorg, maybe you could help us merge feature patches etc. and modernize it to stay competitive against the backward-incompatible stepchild for decades to come?

How is X.org a burden, if it is unmaintained?
It is either maintained, or no burden at all, since it already works the way most people need it to. Security bugs get fixed, and that is it. And people fixing X11 security problems are not the same people as those who develop Wayland, so there is no loss of (wo)manpower over that.

Technical debt is not maintained. It comes from lack of maintenance over time.
Wayland feature incompleteness does not come from lack of programmers, but from poor design.

[omer666]

English and logic are both lost on you.

Thanks for the good laugh