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Fedora 40 Eyes Dropping GNOME X11 Session Support

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  • Fedora 40 Eyes Dropping GNOME X11 Session Support

    Phoronix: Fedora 40 Eyes Dropping GNOME X11 Session Support

    In addition to Fedora 40 planning to ship KDE Plasma 6.0 and without any X11 session support, Fedora stakeholders are also looking at shipping GNOME for the Fedora Workstation 40 release without any X11 session support...

    Phoronix, Linux Hardware Reviews, Linux hardware benchmarks, Linux server benchmarks, Linux benchmarking, Desktop Linux, Linux performance, Open Source graphics, Linux How To, Ubuntu benchmarks, Ubuntu hardware, Phoronix Test Suite

  • #2
    Wayland requires KMS.

    Imagine you've got a kernel update which breaks your GPU driver, so you need to boot with nomodeset. No graphical session for you then while Xorg will work happily.

    That also means that in the future when you try to use an old Linux distro, it again won't boot into graphics mode because it doesn't yet support your new HW.

    What a wonderful world Wayland is preparing for us.

    And Fedora has already removed the vesa driver for Xorg. These people seemingly don't think about compability and reliability at all.

    Comment


    • #3
      Originally posted by avis View Post
      Wayland requires KMS.

      Imagine you've got a kernel update which breaks your GPU driver, so you need to boot with nomodeset. No graphical session for you then while Xorg will work happily.

      That also means that in the future when you try to use an old Linux distro, it again won't boot into graphics mode because it doesn't yet support your new HW.

      What a wonderful world Wayland is preparing for us.

      And Fedora has already removed the vesa driver for Xorg. These people seemingly don't think about compability and reliability at all.
      Old hardware -> use debian.
      People with new hardware, who are enthusiasts should have newer stuff, so they can test everything for LTS users down the chain.

      Comment


      • #4
        For me Gnome's X11 session have been broken since F37. The main problem being notification popups which steal focus, when combined with layout switch this fails to switch layout if it is set to per-window mode.

        Comment


        • #5
          Originally posted by pharmasolin View Post

          Old hardware -> use debian.
          People with new hardware, who are enthusiasts should have newer stuff, so they can test everything for LTS users down the chain.
          That's asinine. You don't have this problem with other commercial OS'es. I have a 2021 computer where I can install and use Windows XP (in basic graphics mode but still in graphics mode) for Christ's sake.

          With the direction Fedora is taking, either you pray Fedora supports your HW properly, or you die trying. I can imagine Fedora 39 or 40 are going to use Wayland for installation. Whoa, what a nice idea. The laptop I bought two months ago was not supported by Fedora 38 installation media, I barely installed the OS on it.

          Just when Linux has started to support most HW properly, Fedora stewards decided that's too good to be true, let's just break everything.
          Last edited by avis; 19 September 2023, 06:53 AM.

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          • #6
            Originally posted by avis View Post
            Wayland requires KMS.

            Imagine you've got a kernel update which breaks your GPU driver, so you need to boot with nomodeset. No graphical session for you then while Xorg will work happily.
            Is this a deliberate gaslighting attempt? Are you unable to actually read the links that you post yourself?

            Most Wayland compositors only work on systems using Kernel mode setting.‚Äč
            Wayland as a protocol does _not_ require KMS. Many/most compositors require KMS, _not all_.

            Also, KDE Plasma works perfectly fine with Wayland when booting with nomodeset. It uses llvmpipe for rendering and normally starts a session.
            Proof:
            Last edited by Arthus; 19 September 2023, 07:01 AM.

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            • #7
              Originally posted by Arthus View Post
              Is this a deliberate gaslighting attempt? Are you unable to actually read the links that you post yourself?


              Wayland as a protocol does _not_ require KMS. Many/most compositors require KMS, _not all_.

              Also, KDE Plasma works perfectly fine with Wayland when booting with nomodeset. It uses llvmpipe for rendering and normally starts a session.
              Proof_
              Does it fucking matter than the protocol does not require KMS when its actual implementations absolutely do??

              When you start/boot Linux do you work with the KMS protocol (a pile of text) or you actually work with its implementation? If anyone is gaslighting, that's surely not me.

              Comment


              • #8
                Originally posted by avis View Post
                Wayland requires KMS.

                Imagine you've got a kernel update which breaks your GPU driver, so you need to boot with nomodeset. No graphical session for you then while Xorg will work happily.

                That also means that in the future when you try to use an old Linux distro, it again won't boot into graphics mode because it doesn't yet support your new HW.

                What a wonderful world Wayland is preparing for us.

                And Fedora has already removed the vesa driver for Xorg. These people seemingly don't think about compability and reliability at all.
                That's what the simpledrm driver is for. Combined with the llvmpipe software renderer, it allows you to run any wayland session without GPU acceleration. Fedora has used it for quite some time as the default framebuffer provider at boot.

                Comment


                • #9
                  Originally posted by avis View Post
                  These people seemingly don't think about compability and reliability at all.
                  Wake me up when microsoft or apple cares about compatibility or reliability. There are many Linux distributions that support older hardware. If you thought Fedora is one of them, you were wrong.

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Originally posted by avis View Post
                    Wayland requires KMS.

                    Imagine you've got a kernel update which breaks your GPU driver, so you need to boot with nomodeset. No graphical session for you then while Xorg will work happily.

                    That also means that in the future when you try to use an old Linux distro, it again won't boot into graphics mode because it doesn't yet support your new HW.
                    Pretty sure that's what SimpleDRM is for.

                    Originally posted by avis View Post
                    What a wonderful world Wayland is preparing for us.

                    And Fedora has already removed the vesa driver for Xorg. These people seemingly don't think about compability and reliability at all.
                    They do, that's the point. Better have one reliable fallback path than a bunch of unmaintained and untested ones.

                    Comment

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