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  • oiaohm
    replied
    Originally posted by mSparks View Post
    Yes, I am sure $50 Billion is 10,000 larger than $5million. Basic math tbh.
    You need to go back and read my post.

    5 million goes to core postgresql project. Enterprisedb developers work full time on Postgresql.

    This is what make postgresql and oracle hard to compare. Some people are in countries where paying the core postgresql project could be a problem.



    So you have basically compared apples to oranges.

    mSparks with oracle db if you don't pay Oracle right you cannot get the database engine modified right. With postgresql this is not the case.


    Originally posted by mSparks View Post
    I'm also sure PostgresSQL will be depreciating RHEL in favour of openELA for production use once distributions are available to actually begin testing on.
    Except that not going to happen. PostgresSQL RHEL support is paid for by Redhat. Does pay to check who paid to do what work.

    This is problem OpenELA is going to run into a lot of packages are built by Redhat staff. There is a warning to this is when you are seeing the redhat company logo being used on the download page in a main location.

    OpenELA memember have not been working with upstream projects less than Redhat has been.

    Originally posted by mSparks View Post
    You didnt come within an order of magnitude of finding 1, soooo, without that, SAP + Oracle are/were 90% of the 3rd party developer market on RHEL. (excluding IBM)
    That not the case. The problem here is parties like Postgresql with multi support companies are very hard to calculate their global income. Also SAP is installed more on postgresql than Oracle.

    SAP Cloud Platform


    Yes SAP own Cloud Platform does not use Oracle parts.

    Things have changed there was a time that to use SAP you had to use Oracle but that has not the case for some time.

    Now what percentage of the RHEL 3rd party developers is SAP+postgresql.

    Leave a comment:


  • mSparks
    replied
    Originally posted by oiaohm View Post

    Are you sure.
    Yes, I am sure $50 Billion is 10,000 larger than $5million. Basic math tbh.
    I'm also sure PostgresSQL will be depreciating RHEL in favour of openELA for production use once distributions are available to actually begin testing on.
    Originally posted by oiaohm View Post
    Since you said name 2 with more than 1Billion in revenue. So you name the 1 you must know. Or is this you assuming again.
    You didnt come within an order of magnitude of finding 1, soooo, without that, SAP + Oracle are/were 90% of the 3rd party developer market on RHEL. (excluding IBM)
    Last edited by mSparks; 12 October 2023, 05:57 AM.

    Leave a comment:


  • oiaohm
    replied
    Originally posted by mSparks View Post
    You mean Db2. lol.
    EnterpriseDB (“EDB”), the leader in accelerating Postgres® in the enterprise, today announced its EDB Guaranteed Postgres Migration program to help qualifying organizations easily migrate from Oracle databases to Postgres, the most used, loved and wanted database according to Stack Overflow.


    Originally posted by mSparks View Post
    Been a while since I've seen someone wrong by 5 orders of magnitude, congrats.
    Are you sure.

    Enterprisedb alone is $267.1M​ income per year and growing at quite a rate.
    2ndQuadrant is 2 million.
    PostgreSQL's revenue is $5.9 million.
    These are all postgresql. These are not the only PostgreSQL support companies.

    Remember Enterprisedb bills 1/5 for the same database server provide compared to Oracle database. Enterprisedb has already taking more 1 billion worth of revenue out of Oracles hands.

    Do note that Enterprisedb do note that as people migrate out of being Oracle center to postgresql center they lose customers. So yes Enterprisedb is driving main Postgresql revenue growth.

    IBM is behind Enterprisedb. Yes scary right by IBM idea of what the Oracle products are worth Oracle should only be at best a 10 billion dollar company and they are working on making that a reality.

    Its kind of a little trap Oracle is not 5 orders of magnitude larger than the Postgresql.



    Its also a surprise by usage market share Postgresql is number 2. The database Oracle in future will have to make money from is Mysql. Problem Oracle only make about $40M​ a year from Mysql even that it the database they own with the largest market share.

    I did mention enterpisedb and then you did not look it up to understand the problem.

    Oracle serous-ally charges arm and leg for their products when they can price them how they want.

    Oracle income streams are not what you call safe. This is why Oracle is trying diversity.

    Originally posted by mSparks View Post
    Name two with more than $1Billion in revenue.
    Since you said name 2 with more than 1Billion in revenue. So you name the 1 you must know. Or is this you assuming again.

    Leave a comment:


  • mSparks
    replied
    Originally posted by oiaohm View Post

    There is a problem here. The most common deployments of SAP don't use Oracle Database. Yes the most supported sap database is PostgreSQL.
    PostgreSQL's revenue is $5.9 million.
    Redhats revenue is $3.4 billion.
    SAPs revenue is $30.87 billion.
    Oracles revenue is $49.95 billion.

    Been a while since I've seen someone wrong by 5 orders of magnitude, congrats.

    Originally posted by oiaohm View Post
    IBM and Oracle have not been on good terms for quite some time.​
    You mean Db2. lol.

    Originally posted by oiaohm View Post
    The collective of software vendors that do RHEL only software is larger
    Name two with more than $1Billion in revenue.

    Leave a comment:


  • oiaohm
    replied
    Originally posted by mSparks View Post
    By far the largest of those "software vendors", by an order of magnitude or two, is Oracle Database.
    \https://help.sap.com/docs/postgresql-hyperscaler-option
    There is a problem here. The most common deployments of SAP don't use Oracle Database. Yes the most supported sap database is PostgreSQL.

    The collective of software vendors that do RHEL only software is larger than Oracle by a large margin.

    Originally posted by mSparks View Post
    Im not assuming oracle have depreciated RHEL and are in the process of replacing it with openELA as the base for their $50 billion a year in sales of Linux software products, they have openly stated it.

    Oracle has been trying for quite some time to have Oracle Linux replace RHEL and SUSE under their Oracle database so they can make the most profit.

    Yes Orcale was in the process of attempting for force the change over to Oracle Linux before the recent Redhat license change. Oracle have had to keep on supporting Suse and Redhat Linux for IBM Z mainframe support.

    Yes SUSE at this point is still on good terms with IBM for IBM Z support that may change with this openELA action. Yes losing free testing on IBM Z hardware could basically lock SUSE out the IBM Z market the same way Oracle Linux is.

    openELA is purely for Oracle so they can keep on making Oracle Linux with the lowest investment possible.

    Like it or not IBM Z systems are unique beasts in hardware. The concept of live swapping every single part of a server and it not skipping a beat does not exist in very much hardware.


    Its one thing to be a software vendor trying to sell your product as reliable, Its another when you are going to head to head argue with the party that makes the most reliable hardware on the planet. Yes that the location that Oracle and Suse have put themselves in with openELA because Redhat is IBM these days.

    Remember many parties make Oracle clones based off Postgresql. Lets say IBM now decided to serous-ally take on Oracle in the database space....

    This is not theory either.

    Yes Oracle might be threatening RHEL with openELA but IBM is working to attack the Oracle Database market share itself.

    IBM and Oracle have not been on good terms for quite some time. Both don't want to pay the other ones license charges.

    Leave a comment:


  • mSparks
    replied
    Originally posted by oiaohm View Post
    Redhat has a large number of software vendors like SAP that have never supported users installing on any of the RHEL clones. Yes SAP is more likely to support installing on Debian or Ubuntu than a RHEL clone like rocky.
    By far the largest of those "software vendors", by an order of magnitude or two, is Oracle Database.
    Of which
    Run SAP applications with Oracle databases with the same code base on Unix, Linux, and Windows operating systems

    Originally posted by oiaohm View Post
    You need to stop assuming everyone going to join OpenELA.
    Im not assuming Oracle have depreciated RHEL and are in the process of replacing it with openELA as the base for their $50 billion a year in sales of Linux software products, they have openly stated it.
    Last edited by mSparks; 11 October 2023, 08:55 PM.

    Leave a comment:


  • oiaohm
    replied
    Originally posted by mSparks View Post
    Its actually 19,000
    But they are nearly all sales reps
    The the companies do have breakdown of staff. Percentage of developers to sales staff . Please find it orcale has a high percentage of sales staff than Redhat. CIQ has a higher percentage of sales staff than redhat. Suse is about equal.


    Originally posted by mSparks View Post
    It is a common source repository for "enterprise linux", a common base for what Oracle, Suse, Rocky, Alma, CIQ and everyone else will call "Enterprise Linux" to guarantee stability and compatibility with each other. 100% of Oracles Linux development team will be pulling source code from it, reporting bugs and using it as their base for development, plus a fair chunk of googles Linux team, it will almost certainly be replacing RH8 on google cloud for example now that google can't use redhat distributions on their cloud infrastructure.

    Google uses lots of Debian and that not changing.

    That the problem if 100% of Oracle, CIQ and Suse development team works on OpenELA you are still wildly under resourced. There is a lot of testing and development time required to guarantee stability and compatibility that Redhat does.

    Committed use discounts (“CUDS”) for Red Hat Enterprise Linux are now available on Compute Engine, delivering up to 24% on RHEL subscription costs.


    Redhat sold on google cloud is normally like above where the software vendor says their product is supported if you use Redhat and if you don't sorry its not supported. Redhat has a large number of software vendors like SAP that have never supported users installing on any of the RHEL clones. Yes SAP is more likely to support installing on Debian or Ubuntu than a RHEL clone like rocky.

    Making a new thing and calling it Enterprise Linux will not make software companies like SAP magically support you. Redhat has a very strong lock-in in the enterprise space.


    Yes is a lot stronger lock in than you think. IBM did not buy Redhat for no reason. IBM Z systems. IBM/Redhat in mainframe market have top to bottom integration. 5% of the total server market is mainframes with 90% of that being IBM.

    This is one of the catches here. Oracle, CIQ and Suse are not in the same class as IBM/Redhat. Oracle, CIQ and Suse cannot provide complete enterprise solutions from a single vendor. IBM/Redhat can. All from one party no back passing that it has to be the hardware or it has to be the software since all the stuff is one party and enterprises love this.

    OpenELA to be competitive needs at-least a hardware vendor signed on.


    Also leave Alma out of it they have stated they are not joining OpenELA they will remain based of Centos stream and don't agree with the OpenELA design and they don't agree with being asked for money.

    You need to stop assuming everyone going to join OpenELA. Alma is example of parties that have been Redhat clones that are not going to join that OpenELA is going to have to compete with.

    Leave a comment:


  • mSparks
    replied
    Originally posted by oiaohm View Post

    Redhat current staff is 13000.
    Its actually 19,000
    But they are nearly all sales reps

    Originally posted by oiaohm View Post
    10 times the number of developers as Redhat means you have to allocate about 70% of Oracle total development team at the project.
    ...
    You have written that the wrong way from the way SUSE will want it to play out.
    You don't seem to remotely understand what openELA is.
    It is a common source repository for "enterprise linux", a common base for what Oracle, Suse, Rocky, Alma, CIQ and everyone else will call "Enterprise Linux" to guarantee stability and compatibility with each other. 100% of Oracles Linux development team will be pulling source code from it, reporting bugs and using it as their base for development, plus a fair chunk of googles Linux team, it will almost certainly be replacing RH8 on google cloud for example now that google can't use redhat distributions on their cloud infrastructure.
    Then others like SAP will follow.
    Last edited by mSparks; 11 October 2023, 10:19 AM.

    Leave a comment:


  • oiaohm
    replied
    Originally posted by mSparks View Post
    It already has 10 times more developers than all of Redhat combined.
    This is not true. SUSE in total has 2000 employees. CIQ has 50 employees. Redhat current staff is 13000.

    Oracle could put 10 times the number of developers at the problem with their 164,000​ employees but their Oracle Linux team is only 200.

    10 times the number of developers as Redhat means you have to allocate about 70% of Oracle total development team at the project.

    To match Redhat you are needing Oracle to allocate 10% of their developers to OpenELA and I don't see Oracle doing that.

    Originally posted by mSparks View Post
    SUSE are basing their next OS on openELA.
    You have written that the wrong way from the way SUSE will want it to play out. SUSE will make openELA based on SUSE next releases using the excuse of cost savings that Oracle will most likely agree with and CIQ(Rocky Linux) does not have the resources to dispute.

    all with more experience< how when you have 1/5 the developers at best. The reality is OpenELA does not have the experience.

    There is a reason why Redhat clones have been taking Redhat source were ever they can. They don't have the resources to produce the source Redhat does.

    mSparks the reality here Redhat collapses so do many core projects. SUSE and CIQ don't have the resources to deal with that.

    Ubuntu gets away with only having 1000 staff by using the debian work. Debian there is over 10000 developers. Arch again over 10000 developers.

    Make a Linux distribution with as many packages as RHEL has you are looking at 10000 developers to support it well.

    Redhat wage bill is eye watering. Redhat is what you get when you can throw 1Billion USD at development per year. Suse is what you get when you can throw 200million USD per year at development. CIQ(rocky Linux) is what you get when you can throw 5million at the problem. Oracle Linux has them throwing like 20 million USD at the problem.

    Yes Suse donation of 10 million dollars to openELA exceed CIQ(rocky linux) operating budget for developers.

    openELA is critically under resourced with no signs of openELA being correctly resourced. Linux Standard Base disaster of incompatibility comes to mind.
    Last edited by oiaohm; 11 October 2023, 05:42 AM.

    Leave a comment:


  • mSparks
    replied
    Originally posted by oiaohm View Post

    Except there is a problem. SUSE is not a RHEL clone and never has been.
    SUSE are basing their next OS on openELA. Get used to it. The only "problem" there is RH is now depreciated industry wide.

    Originally posted by oiaohm View Post
    mSparks the hard reality is OpenELA does not have enough cash of course SUSE is not going to give them enough cash.
    It already has 10 times more developers than all of Redhat combined.
    all with more experience
    all with the freedom to do what is best for development, not whatever pet project is floating the boat of an IBM exec today.

    Redhat leadership team be like:


    Originally posted by oiaohm View Post
    Remember Suse is in it for the market dominance just as much as Redhat is.
    Redhat needs to find a new market first. Currently, no legal team, in any firm large or small, will sign off on their new contracts.

    Leave a comment:

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