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Originally posted by JackLilhammers
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Yes, I am. There are some actionable complaints that we are currently working on addressing. -
Yes I understand large organisation but I first came across it with open source.Originally posted by ngraham View Post
Open source projects seam to follow the following path:
1) solo developers doing everything.
2) migrate to a team of developers
3) Get a documentation writers.
4) Start having people triage bugs who are not developers in a triage team to give developers more hours fixing code.
5) Start a serous quality control processes.
6) start attempting to get more documentation.
7) start a organisation.
Its not always exactly that order but on paper being a large organisation with open source projects generally comes after they have a development process that looks like what you would expect inside a properly run organisation..
KDE very old long term project and it well and truly a registered organisation with all the steps at least somewhat done.
So yes bug triage is in fact different to developers. Yes its the KDE triage team has a name its the Bugsquad. Those in the Bugsquad are not required to be developer just a Triage person.
I would say there is very few ways to run large number of users using a program reporting bugs. User, Triage, Developer split seams to be the only system that works when your program gets above a particular sized user base . Having a skilled developer who can fix complex things wasting hour after hour reading bugs is not productive. Having a less skilled developer/not a developer Triage bugs so the more skilled developers have more hours to develop is good for the projects long term health.
I think this is a case with issue management with organisations and open source projects at scale do the same thing because there is only 1 kind of successful way to-do it. Of course better tooling than what we have could be helpful.
Thing to remember are items like Linus Torvalds started Subsurface Divelog program and others follow the same kind of 7 step process. Yes these are items started as hobbies and while still being hobbies you have the triage team appear.
Lot of issue management software design problems come from not being designed to support having a triage team needing to modify bugs/issues. Horrible part is the projects/software vendors making these bits of software for issue management normally have triage team.... Yes a true WTF moment of how dumb can people be not designing in functionality they need.
Worse is some of the commercial issue management software gets caught not dog fooding their own software. Yes this is selling issue management closed source but then really using like open source bugzilla internally because theirs don't work for them.
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Where can i find more info on this Linux challange?Originally posted by JackLilhammers View Post
I saw a video on youtube "Linux HATES Me – Daily Driver CHALLENGE Pt.1" but it was posted today so you must refer to another source.
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That's the one. He and Luke have been talking about their issues in their podcast, the WAN Show (and there is more content on floatplane, I think) but on youtube they just released the first partOriginally posted by Nille_kungen View PostComment
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That daily driver challenge stuff is a floatplane early access for those who are subscribed with latter release on youtube. Using Nvidia graphics really did not help here. Using distributions without heavy QA system also has not helped.Originally posted by JackLilhammers View Post
Yes as Linus Trovald says is your general distribution packaging is not suitable for lot of things. This brings us to docker, flatpak, snap and appimage.
Valve with steam is in fact working close with flatpak.
Both Linus Sebastian and Luke have both stated how shocking bad the Nvidia binary driver is on Linux compare to it quality under Windows. Yes I run debian for a long time and I learnt how bad the problem was when I had one computer with Intel graphics and one computer with Nvidia graphics both running the same version of debian both with the same package set other than drivers. In a year I had 12 issues with the Nvidia systems and exactly 1 with the intel system. Yes and since I have gone amd graphics issue count massively dropped instantly to match the intel numbers. Yes changing 1 bit of hardware turned out to fix a stack of different problems. Lot of those problems when you start tracing it back its odd things because caused by the way Nvidia drivers hook into x.org X11 server. Yes some the issues did not appear to be video card related latter testing found out how they were.
Nvidia driver quality is not great on Linux and has a lot more adverse effects than it first appears. AMD has the long time frame of have bad driver quality under Windows. Yes do note that both Luke and Linus Sebastian when Nvidia graphics. The truth is Nvidia driver with Linux is just not quality and if you choose to use Nvidia you will have extra problems. Yes Nvidia poor interaction with open source means you don't have a open source driver to fall back on for most of the Nvidia hardware.
Yes there is a big problem with quality of distributions as well.
Linus Sebastian issue with dolphin file manager comes about due to something that has to be fixed. that polkit with kio.
This is something that is interesting do you need to run file manager interface as root to modify root owned files. Technically under Linux the answer is no. What is the advantage of doing this. Lets say you have a file that causes a buffer overflow in the file manager. If the file manager interface is not running as root it cannot do as much damage. This is the problem of least privilege. One of the problems under windows with security is to alter particular files you have to run as administrator.
There is the problem of migrating from Windows to Linux and you bring your windows ways of doing things. This does not mean you don't see a valid bug but when you see a valid bug you at times see the totally wrong way to fix it. Yes the I should be able to run dolphin as root because I could run explorer as administrator and when I cannot this is invalid gate keeping that Linus Sebastian said. Note this was because he could not alter files own by root.
Linux world with dbus/polkit and so on there is a totally different way to skin the problem. Please note under android you have to go though binder as well as a file manager to modify particular files again its about keeping file manager with lower privilege in case something goes wrong.
Linux is not Windows is a simple thing to say. But its a really simple thing to forgot when you hit a problem.
Yes note Linus Sebastian mentions using gnome files instead. Do note that gnome files interface does not run as root when modify a root files. Instead it uses dbus and polkit to open up a approved connection to a higher privilege service. This is absolutely different way windows does it.
Is there a open bug with dolphin backend part kio to intergrate with dbus/polkit properly yes there is. Hopefully next major KDE release this is fixed.
Being forced to use files from gnome instead of dolphin from kde because a feature is not ready yet is better than have possible major system damage if dolphin file manager has a issue.
Like my desktop might be majority KDE but I still do use gnome applications for different things and I also use some xfce applications for different things. Majority of Linux users long term are not stuck to using one DE applications.Comment
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oiaohm
I'll be blunt, please forgive me.
I don't have floatplane, so I'll see the challenge once it comes to youtube.
Pop should be a distribution with a quite heavy QA process. At least it's marketed that way, so it's a "bug" on their side.
Your tirade against nvidia is pointless.
Outside techies, nobody cares if it's nvidia's fault.
Linux != Windows, you don't say?!
The issue here is not the difference, but how things are presented to the user.
If a distribution claims to be user friendly it must take into account that many people are used to other operating systems and the new way must be clear and intuitive or the user must be taught.
(IMHO he Gnome tour is an exception in this regard, because if you need a tour to explain the desktop, maybe there's something wrong with it)
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This is the problem. Lot of distributions are marketed as having a lot of QA but when you look closer you find horrible issues. Ubuntu only has full QA on the main repository. Does Pop OS restrict themselves to only the main repository and their own repository no they don't.Originally posted by JackLilhammers View Post
Most people don't read this.
add-apt-repository "deb http://apt.pop-os.org/ubuntu $(lsb_release -cs) main multiverse restricted universe"
Yes they have their own mirror. But for those 4 repositories they have basically out source to ubuntu/Canonical and only main has Canonical has promised to provided servers to run quality control on. Yes that include that Canonical has not promised to check that drivers installed from their restricted are in fact right.
Notice you said Pop should be a quite heavy QA process because of marketing. If you believed marketing of history cigarettes don't cause cancer. Yes believing a distribution provided proper QA on packages does require looking a little deeper and learning not to believe marketing alone.
One Nvidia drivers are not quality. Two you have ubuntu and others bundling up the Nvidia drivers without proper QA processes to make sure the packaged drivers work.Originally posted by JackLilhammers View Post
Sorry to say trying Linux with Nvidia graphics card with many distributions is very that someone is putting a kick me sign on your back and you have not noticed and then getting upset because you keep on getting kicked. Yes very big kickme sign from Ubuntu/Canonical by having the restricted repository not properly QA controlled that the Nvidia drivers are in.
No this is incorrect standard to claim user friendly has to take account of prior OS usage. Mac OS by apple claims to be user friendly. Does Mac OS interface design really care about if the user has used other operating systems the answer is no. Clear and intuitive to a person that does not let their prior OS usage bias take over. Yes there are many case that a person goes from windows to mac os and has big trouble because they are trying the windows way on mac os and the reverse is true a person is use to Mac OS and goes to Windows and has big trouble.Originally posted by JackLilhammers View Post
Linux != Windows is the same as Mac OS != Windows as well. Yes you have to remember people run into the same problem moving from Mac OS to Windows and Windows to Mac OS because they word their questions wrong because the prior OS usage has makes them ask the question wrong so not be able to see intuitive solution straight in front of them.
Changing OS is not without is issue. Yes leaving you personal bias for way things has been done in the different OS and look for the new ways is something you need to go in with that mind set. Without it you are going to get yourself into trouble. Yes some of this trouble will present itself with the appearance of gate keeping where a person just saying you don't do it X way.
Like asking to run dolphin as root that is something that is wrong todo and this is a question you come up with due to prior windows experience with run as administrator and due asking the question that way you get the answer no you don't do that and we will never support doing this. Now difference question same problem. I need to modify files owned by root in following directory? I cannot do this with dolphin? that would you get you to https://phabricator.kde.org/T5071 that is a known defect of dolphin that is being worked on and that its recommend you use some other file manager like files for now to perform those tasks.
JackLilhammers can you see the trap of prior OS usage bias now. I could do examples with people going from Mac Os to Windows or from Windows to Mac OS running into the same kind of traps. This is not a problem that can really be solved by making the distribution more user friendly. Instead you would end up attempting to make the Linux distribution like a clone of windows/OS X interface of course this would not be a perfect match and end up more problematic.
Reality changing OS first thing is be aware that you have a bias and be very careful not to be tunnelled visioned by that bias resulting in asking questions that are not going to give you the answers you need to use the OS.
That the other thing software is not always fully feature complete. Yes tolerance to lack of feature complete is higher when there is other software on the platform that can work around the limitations. Please note I don't say this tolerance is the best thing in the world. Its like notepad being feature poor vs notepad++. So lack of feature complete software so having to use something non Microsoft to get stuff done under windows happens. This is no different to the case of some bit of KDE software being feature incomplete so having to use gnome or some bit of gnome software being feature incomplete and having to use a KDE bit of software.Last edited by oiaohm; 10 November 2021, 10:26 AM.Comment
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Allow me translate your wall of text to user experience: Linux as a gaming platform is broken.
IIRC Mac isn't struggling on the desktop, but maybe I'm wrong...Originally posted by oiaohm View PostComment
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And its exactly that fact that Mac isn't struggling badly is part of it and you failed to take that into consideration. Think about Android, IOS and Max OS these are not windows like. There is not reason to take into account that users in fact use other operating systems from a general user friendliness point of view.Originally posted by JackLilhammers View Post
This is why this line of yours contains something wrong. Taking into account that many people are use to other operating systems and designing to match what those users expect means you don't consider if there is are more intuitive way long term.If a distribution claims to be user friendly it must take into account that many people are used to other operating systems and the new way must be clear and intuitive or the user must be taught.
There are common paths to horrible with a Linux distribution/DE that come from coping another platforms interface.
You think about it when you run platform emulators on windows you don't alter the windows platform interface to copy emulator interface if anything you expect the reverse.
Proton hidden behind steam program that is loader with everything auto configured for user for gaming is most like the experience users want right. The app store model for third party applications.. If this is the case for majority of gaming the Distribution will have almost nothing todo with the outcome.
You can look at the wine bugzilla stats. How many wine defects are distribution dependant when you run the states the number is 1 in 10000 or less. How many are choice of DE dependant about 1 in 5000 or less. How many is choice of GPU about one in 80. Out of that the one with the adverse effect these days is about 70% Nvidia. We go back 5 years and it was 85% amd for GPU issues. AMD drivers have come a very long way on Linux .
Then you can go look at distribution bugs. Most common GPU with Linux to result in not being able to access you system Nvidia by a large margin. Intel and AMD gpu drivers very rarely cause issues on Linux. The lower the quality control of the distribution on the Nvidia drivers the more problems you have with Nvidia drivers..
There are issues here there are old games in the valve library that don't work well on Nvidia on Linux because gamescope has not been able to work due to lack of Xwayland support. Yes some of these appear as DRM break because framerate has gone too high.
Also that so call translate that Linux is broken as a gaming platform. This is not 100 percent true. Linux distributions comes with a huge selection of open source games that are simple to install. Steam is progressively getting simpler to use. Also do remember here Valve with the steamdeck is testing with a AMD gpu not a Nvidia one.
You have to be aware what the effects are of attempting to fix problems particular ways. Yes pop os attempts to work around the Ubuntu broken restricted repository(Nvidia driver source) by sticking their own repositories on top. Then their own repositories suffer from complete distribution ecosystem incompatibility at times. Yes the one where Linus Sebastian and EvoxVox attempts to install steam on different distributions and they attempt to uninstall the complete system is this side effect of mixing incompatible repositories. Be it deb, rpm.. your common distribution package management most are not designed to share so have dependency hell.
Yes the first point of debian documentation on how not to break debian is don't make a Franken Debain. This is don't mix repositories that are not quality controlled as a complete system. A Franken distribution suffers from the events where apt dnf... as in the package-management goes and uninstalls your complete desktop on you due to incompatible packages being installed.
Think about it Pop OS offers newer Nvidia drivers but its a Franken distribution. Franken distributions are simple for a person making a distribution to have a lot of applications quickly. Problem is being Franken its unstable and its a matter of time until updates gets lost and removes you desktop environment.
Reality here is having newer Nvidia drivers worth having the risk that you complete desktop environment magically uninstalls.
Yes the don't break debian covers the options latter on to avoid the Franken problem. Using namespaces and cgroups is very much a option to avoid franken problem.
Desktop environment on Linux and applications on Linux can run in different namespaces both snap and flatpak demo this.
Are enterprise distributions franken distributions no. Are the majority of distributions people get told to use franken distributions yes. Are a majority of people told to things that will turn their distribution into a franken distribution yes they are. The methods used that make franken distributions predate Linux having cgroups and namespaces and are really legacy methods that need to go away.
JackLilhammers yes there is a nightmare that people are starting to think that the defect of frankensteined distributions is just how Linux should behave when that is absolutely not the case.
Yes no site I have seen reviewing distributions have looked at the repositories of the distribution to check if the distribution is Frankensteined or not. Yes debian calls these franken distributions because you have effective made a monster that is going to harm end users. If a distribution is Frankensteiend its poor quality and user harmful no matter what the developer of the distribution is attempting todo. When you remove all Frankensteined distributions for your choice list of Linux Distributions you list is way shorter. 80% of LInux distributions out there are these monsters.Comment
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