Firefox 75 On Wayland Now To Have Full WebGL, Working VA-API Acceleration

[gedgon]

For my set of workpatterns (heavy browser usage[...]), wayland surpassed xorg a short while ago.

I'm curious, on which browser? Firefox on Wayland is buggy and crashy, Chromium based browsers on XWayland are much slower than on Xorg.
I tried the Wayland experience on GNOME 3.34 for a month or so, and IMHO, it's beta quality at most, definitely not production ready.

[arokh]

Either you're retarded, or Linux has more than one DE. And so far Gnome is the only semi-usable DE for Wayland - some features still require alpha-quality software like PipeWire. Looks like Wayland fan-atics are even worse than Open Source fanatics.

Resorting to personal attacks when lacking any arguments comes as no big surprise. I'm not the one raging about Wayland being bad design and having nothing to back it up with other than KDE's poor support of it. I thought you were "over and out" and rage quitted, what happened? Then you just came back and resumed trolling without backing up anything you wrote before? Well, once a troll always a troll I guess.

I'm curious, on which browser? Firefox on Wayland is buggy and crashy

I'm using Firefox on Sway and it's stable as a rock for me.

[Hibbelharry]

Your feelings towards Xorg? What about facts? What barely works for you in X.org? What is extremely buggy? What about a ton of issues?

Well, let's talk. Did you ever do display hotplugging? I'm carrying my laptop to multiple places a day: my desk, conference rooms, teammates desks. Whenever I do hotplugging I've to bet it works. It might, but often it doesn't. If the other display has a different dpi ratio, well that's never really working out, but a xserver crash is annoying. We do use thinkpads, which aren't a bad choice as fas as I am and many others are converned, still this just never gets stable, but that's just one of the things which is no more hazzle since switching to wayland. In my experience: it just works, and thats awesome.

I've made quite some of those experiences. Fiddling around with my private htpc and Kodi trying to make movies not being played jerky while a secondary info display (integrated into my htpc case) keeps working. Switching to wayland killed that problem, and I've put quite some effort into modelines before.
Or debugging crashy or slow sessions, which was a huge painat work some time ago. It just went to utter crap performance after a while of usage, for seemingly no reason. Funnily that was never a problem with a single display, but we use dual display desks. You had to disconnect one display to be able to work a whole day, if not the xserver just went ahead and consumed lots of cputime.

God, you're lying through your teeth so hard it's actually amusing. Just a single thing please.

No arguments contained, so let's go on...

And what about all those things which do not work in Wayland right effing now? You bought new HW just to be able to run Wayland? OMG, fanaticism is strong with you.

We did buy smart whenever we had to buy new stuff. And right: We did also swap smaller accounts of cards whenever we felt like it. We're no gamers at work, we also don't do GPU computing. We need to get jobs done. GPUs sized for desktop usage are cheap. Putting manpower into supporting nvidia blob issues also consumed money. We do offer people to chose their favourite distribution and caring for "I installed foobar linux and my Desktop is sloooow" nouveau issues was a pain. Also bleeding edge distros and nvidia legay drivers...

RDP for Linux? A joke is on you: RDP was designed to work with proper GDI/Direct2D environments (where it truly shines), not send full bitmaps all the time. I know how RDP for X11 works under Linux - it's horrible and laughable. Likewise VNC which, if you're lucky, can be loaded as an X.org module but if you aren't, it's slow and inefficient as hell. ssh -X flies in comparison and miles better than VNC and RDP combined because it actually understands what and how is being painted on the screen instead of sending full desktop snapshots all the time.

At first: We've got a mixed linux/windows environment. If you want to remotely connect to windows boxes, well you use remmina, etc. You're right in saying there is no sane RDP server for linux, but that's not my point. VNC is also not that great, but did you ever try to connect to i.e OSX? X2go is pretty nice. You surely know the technology: Take the X11 protocol, remove lots of overhead, compress the stream, use a secure tunnel. Whenever you're in X11 environments it's pretty neat. Just remind this: While nxlibs are modified x11 libs, they're not x11 libs, because libx11 itself is crap in that regards. I'm eager to try new wayland solutions, and there are promising ideas on the horizon, that's one thing that's not there yet. It's just x11 isn't there, too and will never be fixed.

It's all especially pathetic given that I'm sure as hell you've spent literally hundreds of man hours and hundreds of hard dollars just to be able to run Linux semi-efficiently while you could have bought a Windows 10 license for $15 on Ebay and get a perfect experience out of the box. People are amusing. You need a Linux development environment? Discover WSL: everything is available out of the box with 100% compatibility. Apache, PHP, MySQL what gives you. Or Python, RoR, Rust, Go if you're trendy.

No, you're wrong. Sure, Windows licenses are dirt cheap nowadays, but our development environment and development needs don't fit well to windows for the most part. We're doing webapps for the most part, and thats no point where windows does do a good job. Fiddling with node, different php versions, java, git, debuggers and IDEs... If you finally get that working, it's much slower. We never managed to be as effective in the MS world.

I'm curious, on which browser? Firefox on Wayland is buggy and crashy, Chromium based browsers on XWayland are much slower than on Xorg.
I tried the Wayland experience on GNOME 3.34 for a month or so, and IMHO, it's beta quality at most, definitely not production ready.

Chrome doesn't work well for me. I'm kind of a tab warrior, my browser consists of 100 to 300 open tabs at the same time. I just never got used to bookmarks that much, and often need to conserve states of websites. Chrome just can't handle that. I do use chrome for comparisons, but my main work happens in firefox nightlies. Xwayland Firefox does offer no real advantage, I admit, but it's no especially bad experience either. I switched to the wayland backend in firefox some time ago, and I'm quite happy with it. I don't see many crashes, not really anything concerning. I do have some clipboard issues currently which are annoying, gut given the other advantages i'm not switching back currently.

[birdie]

Resorting to personal attacks when lacking any arguments comes as no big surprise. I'm not the one raging about Wayland being bad design and having nothing to back it up with other than KDE's poor support of it. I thought you were "over and out" and rage quitted, what happened? Then you just came back and resumed trolling without backing up anything you wrote before? Well, once a troll always a troll I guess.

I wasn't talking to you, mr. Why are you even here? I asked the person who was obviously lying to give some proofs. The hell you are replying instead of him? And what about attacking common sense, logic and facts? Is this OK with you? That's what Wayland fan-atics have shown so far in this thread. They keep on lying, lying and lying. According to them/you everything works in Wayland, nothing works in X.org. The fact that 99.9% of distros default to completely "malfunctioning" X.org speaks volumes about your "facts". And, no, your upvoting of one another is not a substitute to valid reasoning. Stating facts is trolling, lying through your teeth is just fine. That's the state of affairs in Linux.

[birdie]

@Hibbelharry

Again bug reports or you're lying. Each issue I've ever had with Linux is logged and visible. That's why I stopped reading your comment after, "but a xserver crash is annoying". Again, I have a PC with a universally (in the world of Linux fan-atics) hated NVIDIA GPU with proprietary drivers (what a heresy, right, I'm that insane to run Linux with an NVIDIA GPU) and I don't remember the last time X.org has crashed. Yeah, I'm running two displays sometimes. Hot plugging the second one. Everything works. And, no, I've never bought HW specifically for Linux. I still value my sanity over obsessions and bigotry.

Meanwhile you kinda sorta said that X.org has a ton of issues, hardly works and is buggy as hell and I barely see two issues (both of a highly dubious nature since you've failed to provide bug reports). Extreme exaggeration in your case is unfortunately the case of twisting and turning facts in your favor. Sorry, that doesn't work for me. Meanwhile 99.9% of Linux users still run X.org. and most of them have absolutely nothing to say about it because they don't even know it's X.org and not some Linux Graphics Server because "it just works". Not according to this thread. With this I rest my case for the third time in this thread as I expected some actual proofs that Wayland is so incredibly great and X.org is so horribly bad and I haven't got any save for some anecdotal evidence.

[birdie]

Hibbelharry:

I'm sorry for coming off kinda angry and almost insulting. I've finished reading your comment: you're running a development shop I get it. You're all IT specialists with a lot of experience and you need a good development environment which is indeed better served by Linux, though I've heard stories that MacOS is also great in this regard but I've never used it.

I'm glad Wayland works better for you. It still would be great if you admitted Wayland is just not yet there where you could install it in distro X and everything works beautifully out of the box and you never even think about the fact that you're running it. And that's not exactly great given that it's been in development for over 11 years. Speaks volumes about its adoption even though people can realistically code around it. That's far more difficult for other OSes where 100% compatibility with old closed source software is paramount. Microsoft still cannot convince people to start using Windows on ARM64 because x86-64 code translation is not that fast.

And I'm glad you've finally admitted that you're having issues in Wayland which are not there in X.org.

[tildearrow]

Martin Stransky specifically targets wayland@gnome.

General discussions about wayland being ready makes no sense.

Come on, are you trying to insert your GNOME on a Firefox thread? :l

[tildearrow]

That's a good way to put it. X11 is everything and the kitchen sync. Drawing API? Check. Fonts? Check. Settings? Check. Remoting? Check. Bitmaps? Check. OpenGL? Uh, sure. Tons of extensions for things that people expect from modern systems? Yeah, they're there.

Does anybody use most of them?
Do they *really* add that much overhead?

Most of them are there just for compatibility with old applications. Why can't you accept that?

Windows still has some APIs that have existed since the Windows 1.0 (1985!) era, and they still do not remove them because compatibility is paramount for them.

Wayland just gives you a window on the screen, an OpenGL context and input events, then gets out of your way. It doesn't care about text rendering or program settings. That makes it more durable in the long run.

I wish at least it was able to provide some information query APIs like to see which windows are open, to open windows/close them/move them/resize them/whatever (like xdotool), window/screen capture (X11 has XSHM and XComposite), screen resolution and clipboard, of course with the user's permission.

And it works. I've been using it for some years now. Does it have support for clipboard managers? No thanks, my DE has enough clipboard bugs as it is. Does it have built-in networking? No, but I'd rather use RDP, VNC, waypipe or even SSH X forwarding than have one implementation baked in.

Yeah it works if you can accept a compositor that crashes every few hours and makes you lose all your work. I have used X.Org for 5 years and it has almost never crashed in my face. In the meanwhile the Wayland compositors have in one or other way.
Yeah it is getting more stable lately but still it's behind.

YES I do need clipboard manager support, OK? I use the clipboard a lot and I hate seeing such an important feature go away in Wayland compositors only because of the excess security.

Most of these things are compositor-specific, and that just pisses me off...

[Hibbelharry]

Hibbelharry:
I'm sorry for coming off kinda angry and almost insulting.

Well I think we can agree on removing the almost, I got some F words from you. I don't mind that too much personally, so I'm ok. But if that did anything, then it harmed your own position in the discussion, because others will see rage but no more arguments. That's no good strategy to convince people, but I think you already know that, so let's put an end to that discussion.

I've finished reading your comment: you're running a development shop I get it. You're all IT specialists with a lot of experience and you need a good development environment which is indeed better served by Linux, though I've heard stories that MacOS is also great in this regard but I've never used it.

I'm no OS X guy, I'm glad whenever I get away from it. I never get used to many parts of its design and workflow, and I think the hardware is pretty much overrated and overpriced, for investments in wrong directions. I'm more in the lenovo thinkpad camp: Better Keyboards, being able to swap batteries, good docking, many ports and no adapters,... The only thing apple does way better: Touchpads. These do work really really well, but that's not enough for me to really like their products with all the other pitfalls.

I'm glad Wayland works better for you. It still would be great if you admitted Wayland is just not yet there where you could install it in distro X and everything works beautifully out of the box and you never even think about the fact that you're running it.

True, sometimes I've got to mind that I'm running wayland. But it's the same for xorg! "Can you please present the slides? Horrible things will happen If I'm going to plug that HDMI 4k conference room television to my pc." That's a typical xorg woe for me and colleagues. There are wayland woes too, neither is perfect, but we're now at a point in time, where woes shift: Pain gets more often visible in "xorgland". Sure, thats a new development, but its there, now.

And that's not exactly great given that it's been in development for over 11 years.

Yes, it took a long while, but I don't care too much about that. Relevant points for me are: whats the current situation, where does active development cure problems and put new things on the table? How much does happen on the other side, are they progressing too? Xorg is pretty much dead for me. Some really nasty longtime problems, no activity, no cure. Wayland is much much more promising. Equal share of problems, a lot of activity around it, new features incoming, problems getting less and less.

Again: I might be lucky to like gnome much more than for example KDE, but that's what I see. It's pretty good nowadays.

Speaks volumes about its adoption even though people can realistically code around it.

Adoption was slow for a very long time, but things change. The maturity of wayland changed. A lot of work was needed to get it into shape for normal usage, that work is mostly done for many usecases. The past doesn't dictate the future, as long as people do use their brains, and I see more change coming. That's the beauty of being able to choose, and having choice.

That's far more difficult for other OSes where 100% compatibility with old closed source software is paramount. Microsoft still cannot convince people to start using Windows on ARM64 because x86-64 code translation is not that fast.

Thats a different story. Microsoft changed directions so many times, that they ruin everything achieved time after time after time. They told deverlopers to build UWP Apps, now UWP is dead, dying with EdgeHTML and their store. They killed of Windows Mobile multiple times, they're just not constant and true to their words longtime. Situation is different for wayland.

And I'm glad you've finally admitted that you're having issues in Wayland which are not there in X.org.

Yes, I do. They're just not more annyoing to me than xorg problems I also faced all the time.

[arokh]

I wasn't talking to you, mr. Why are you even here? I asked the person who was obviously lying to give some proofs. The hell you are replying instead of him? And what about attacking common sense, logic and facts? Is this OK with you? That's what Wayland fan-atics have shown so far in this thread. They keep on lying, lying and lying. According to them/you everything works in Wayland, nothing works in X.org. The fact that 99.9% of distros default to completely "malfunctioning" X.org speaks volumes about your "facts". And, no, your upvoting of one another is not a substitute to valid reasoning. Stating facts is trolling, lying through your teeth is just fine. That's the state of affairs in Linux.

Actually you were talking to me. If you don't know how to read and comprehend how a forum works properly, might I suggest you go back to school and/or stop calling others retarded? Same goes for calling others fanatics, when you are using the install base of X.org as an argument against Wayland. You've proven to be a raging troll with absolutely zero knowledge of LInux or open source development in general. Congratulations.