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Firefox 75 On Wayland Now To Have Full WebGL, Working VA-API Acceleration

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  • Originally posted by browseria View Post
    You are right that the surface area of Wayland isn't as big or as comprehensive as X, but it was never meant to be by design. Because it is good architecture. It is durable and flexible technology. Things that X are not and could never be. The things you are looking for are necessarily going to be at a higher layer of abstraction than the Wayland protocols, by design. The fact that people have decided to do multiple implementations independently rather than work on shared libraries is unfortunate, but also not atypical in linux development.
    That's a good way to put it. X11 is everything and the kitchen sync. Drawing API? Check. Fonts? Check. Settings? Check. Remoting? Check. Bitmaps? Check. OpenGL? Uh, sure. Tons of extensions for things that people expect from modern systems? Yeah, they're there.

    Wayland just gives you a window on the screen, an OpenGL context and input events, then gets out of your way. It doesn't care about text rendering or program settings. That makes it more durable in the long run.

    And it works. I've been using it for some years now. Does it have support for clipboard managers? No thanks, my DE has enough clipboard bugs as it is. Does it have built-in networking? No, but I'd rather use RDP, VNC, waypipe or even SSH X forwarding than have one implementation baked in.

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    • Originally posted by birdie View Post
      You offer wlroots as the counterargument that Wayland doesn't have good rich APIs for a graphics environment? LMAO. A project which has no relationship to Wayland and was created by the Sway developer. That's not a counter-argument, dude. You're proving me right.
      Uhm, it provides the code you have asked for so what do you mean it's not a counter-argument? You have been revealed as nothing but a troll. Are you posting this on your new gamer PC that you got for christmas "LMAO"?

      This discussion is a poor joke.
      On the contrary, I find you hilarious.

      Excuse me for asking, but can you please explain what you need an API for in the first place? Can you point us to the code you are trying to port, and explain to us why wlroots doesn't fit the bill instead of posting non-sense?

      KDE and GNOME have been re-inventing the wheel since forever, it's nothing new in open source. Almost sounds like you think Linux is a company like Apple or Microsoft.

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      • I'm a troll, right, and here are my trolling contributions to the Linux kernel, KDE, Wine, GCC, Midnight Commander (there are many other projects). Let's just settle down on, "Linux has its very special way and as an OS it's meant mostly for geeks - others need not apply". For over 15 years now I've been advocating and offering ways to make Linux a decent desktop OS but here I'm being called a troll for that by complete nonamers from Phoronix who probably started using Linux a few years ago and deem themselves Open Source aficionados. Only you're mostly fanatics, sorry. You have an OS which is constantly in a semi-broken state and you're taking a lot of pride in that. And some even take pleasure in that, as indicated by the by the earlier post made by GrayShade. That's called insanity outside the Linux world. Thanks to this insanity I now have a laptop which doesn't boot in Linux at all. I was told I shouldn't be using Fedora. LMAO. Next, let's have an argument which distros are OK to use and which are not. And which kernels are "stable" and which are not. Enough of this utter crap. I'm over and out.
        Last edited by birdie; 03-04-2020, 11:38 AM.

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        • Originally posted by Britoid View Post
          Firefox doesn't really "support Linux" either. Linux support is being maintained by Red Hat.
          Linux is one of the Tier 1 platforms for Firefox at Mozilla; RedHat usually contributes changes to the GTK widget and graphics stack, but most of the work there is also done within Mozilla.

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          • Originally posted by birdie View Post
            I'm a troll, right, and here are my trolling contributions to the Linux kernel, KDE, Wine, GCC, Midnight Commander (there are many other projects).
            You got that wrong: It's nice that you contributed, you helped that projects to advance. Thanks for that! But: that doesn't remove the possibility that you might be completely wrong on other ocassions. So you might very well be a troll in regards to the matter discussed here.

            Originally posted by birdie View Post
            Let's just settle down on, "Linux has its very special way and as an OS it's meant mostly for geeks - others need not apply". For over 15 years now I've been advocating and offering ways to make Linux a decent desktop OS but here I'm being called a troll for that by complete nonamers from Phoronix who probably started using Linux a few years ago and deem themselves Open Source aficionados. Only you're mostly fanatics, sorry. You have an OS which is constantly in a semi-broken state and you're taking a lot of pride in that.
            Easy answer: Every software that still advances will have a steady flow of new bugs. That's just natural and happens everywhere. Only software that doesn't advance anymore might get into a state of mostly bugfree operation. If you don't want progress, use something else. If you can't accept any bugs, use something else.

            Originally posted by birdie View Post
            And some even take pleasure in that, as indicated by the by the earlier post made by GrayShade. That's called insanity outside the Linux world. Thanks to this insanity I now have a laptop which doesn't boot in Linux at all. I was told I shouldn't be using Fedora.
            Yip. You've got quite some misconceptions as far as i can see. And you're not really taking the safe route, but expect everything to be bulletproof. It isn't. It never will be.

            Originally posted by birdie View Post
            Enough of this utter crap. I'm over and out.
            I would really appreciate if you would stick to that. You posted a lot of FUD.

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            • Originally posted by GrayShade View Post

              That's a good way to put it. X11 is everything and the kitchen sync. Drawing API? Check. Fonts? Check. Settings? Check. Remoting? Check. Bitmaps? Check. OpenGL? Uh, sure. Tons of extensions for things that people expect from modern systems? Yeah, they're there.

              Wayland just gives you a window on the screen, an OpenGL context and input events, then gets out of your way. It doesn't care about text rendering or program settings. That makes it more durable in the long run.

              And it works. I've been using it for some years now. Does it have support for clipboard managers? No thanks, my DE has enough clipboard bugs as it is. Does it have built-in networking? No, but I'd rather use RDP, VNC, waypipe or even SSH X forwarding than have one implementation baked in.
              Totally agree.

              A fundamental limitation of X11 is GPU was not present (or more precisely, not available for general public) during the design of that protocol,
              and decades later we had to duct tape GPU acceleration to X11. For example, I tried but never fully understand how DRI1 is supposed to work.

              This puts an unintended limit to desktop, server and embedded systems.

              1. Modern desktops assume the present of GPU, but X11's GPU acceleration is basically pre-Vista era design, when 3D acceleration was optional.
              In other words, X11 based Linux is technically inferior to Windows Vista/7, at least in terms of the system design.

              2. Sever (or HPC) wants GPU acceleration, but does not want a running X for nobody.
              It was very tricky if not impossible to create a headless (i.e., without X) OpenGL context.
              Nowadays we can do it with EGL easiiy and I'm guessing this benefits partially from Wayland (and also partially from HPC market demands)

              3. Embedded systems may not have a 3D accelerated GPU, but also lack the desire to support the full X11 protocol.

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              • Originally posted by Hibbelharry View Post
                I would really appreciate if you would stick to that. You posted a lot of FUD.
                I presume there will be no examples, as well as no proof that I've ever been a troll, or trolled against Open Source. I thought my contributions and the fact that I've been using Linux since the late 90s almost exclusively are enough to prove I only have good intentions towards open source, but, no, open source fan-atics can't stop. F you, sir. Just f you.

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                • Originally posted by birdie View Post

                  X.org works everywhere, all the time, and supports 100% of GUI Linux applications nothing of which can be said about Wayland which is selective as hell and still has tons of issues. Not to mention it absolutely sucks in terms of remote desktopping - it's worse than Windows and X.org combined. And the fact that once a Wayland compositor crashes it brings down all the running GUI apps is just fabulous. Such a great tech we have here. Windows can perfectly run without DWM. X.org applications can perfectly run without a window manager.

                  MPV supports vdpau/vaapi under X.org perfectly. Don't tell me implementing those for X.org by Firefox would be difficult. They could have as well embedded mpv into Firefox - it's not like Firefox has its own libraries for audio/video decoding - it uses ffmpeg.

                  Yeah, I'm trolling. Try harder next time.

                  God, what a cesspool we have here. Fanatics upvoting fanatics.
                  Sadly, as much as this hurts them I have to accept that Wayland is not a complete solution.

                  Over 47 people can't understand that and still think Wayland is the future.
                  It may be, but it has lots of flaws...

                  Yeah, sure, X11 may be ancient and has its defects too, but at least it's usable for a desktop and compatible with everything.
                  Last edited by tildearrow; 03-09-2020, 08:27 PM.

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                  • Originally posted by birdie View Post
                    I'm a troll, right, and here are my trolling contributions to the Linux kernel, KDE, Wine, GCC, Midnight Commander (there are many other projects).
                    You are absolutely a troll, I asked you to show code and you show bug reports.

                    Let's just settle down on, "Linux has its very special way and as an OS it's meant mostly for geeks - others need not apply". For over 15 years now I've been advocating and offering ways to make Linux a decent desktop OS
                    Who gave you that job?

                    but here I'm being called a troll for that by complete nonamers from Phoronix who probably started using Linux a few years ago and deem themselves Open Source aficionados. Only you're mostly fanatics, sorry.
                    Wrong assumption, my first Linux install was in 1997. You're being called a troll for trolling.

                    You have an OS which is constantly in a semi-broken state and you're taking a lot of pride in that. And some even take pleasure in that, as indicated by the by the earlier post made by GrayShade. That's called insanity outside the Linux world. Thanks to this insanity I now have a laptop which doesn't boot in Linux at all. I was told I shouldn't be using Fedora. LMAO. Next, let's have an argument which distros are OK to use and which are not. And which kernels are "stable" and which are not. Enough of this utter crap. I'm over and out.
                    So your laptop won't boot and that somehow qualifies you to make completely ridiculous comments on Wayland design? That's called insanity outside your own private sphere.

                    Comment


                    • Wayland is not that good. It has limitations, bugs, missed features. It's a game. Xorg has everything and should used by serious users. Or should watch my PC over and over waiting for the next release and then the next release and then the next release ad infinitum until I realize I've getting old?

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