Systemd-Free Debian "Devuan" Planning Their First Developer Gathering This Spring

[intelfx]

3 issues here:
-why are you blaming systemd for a packaging issue in Arch (and this isn't the first time the fuckers break systemd packages)? I mean that's Arch packagers changing name of the systemd library package and causing a conflict and massive breakage on update, which is imho VERY BAD as it's a core library, how is that a systemd issue?

It's not even a packaging issue. In Arch, one package replacing/superseding another is a routine automated operation that causes 0 breakage whatsoever. I have no idea how he managed to mess that up, you have to literally go out of your way to break that shit.

[Britoid]

The reason for badly designed Redhat software is the alliance with Microsoft. Redhat is the tool for Microsoft to prevent a desktop Linux to be more popular.

https://www.redhat.com/en/partners/microsoft

Microsoft is not a Debian partner, but the influence of poor Redhat software is global. Debian maintainers value the amount of developers more than software quality. Choosing gnome3 to be the default desktop after planning to use Xfce proves that.
https://www.debian.org/partners/

Always wondered when I'd see a comment here from the great and wise debianxfce.

What RedHat software is badly designed and why? I will accept gnome shells Wayland implementation.

[arokh]

I think at this point it's clear to see that mental illness and anti-systemd behaviour are related. No valid argument against it has ever been presented to this day.

[L_A_G]

Well, 3 days event in Amsterdam only to tell the world they don't like systemd is not exactly quiet... That said, I think they're free to like and dislike anything they want, I just happen to have a lot of fun when I read their arguments for it...

So what, people who don't like SystemD aren't allowed to host events where they get together to work on alternatives without it? You're the one showing up the the comments of a news story about it just to moan about them...

[cybertraveler]

I think at this point it's clear to see that mental illness and anti-systemd behaviour are related. No valid argument against it has ever been presented to this day.

Are you a machine?

Kinda seems like your comment was mechanically produced to try and incite drama or upset.

[cybertraveler]

Gnome3: a full screen start menu is horrible to use in over 6 inch displays. Really stupid in a 28 inch 4K monitor. No desktop launchers and the desktop is keyboard focused. A graphical desktop with the poor mouse support, great. You must use a lot of gnome tweaks to make it your liking. The Xfce desktop is freely configurable and works great out of the box with 4K monitors.

Wayland: is bloatware in desktop computers and never will be popular or replace X.

Pulseaudio: buggy, resource hog and cause a lot of problems in gaming and other use. Alsa audio is stable and pro-audio uses jackd.

Networkmanager: uses notifications from the driver stack, user has no control to the hardware. Wicd is stable and you can control your internet devices with it directly.

Systemd: a typical redhat reinventing the wheel software. Adds no value to sysV init in point of a normal user view. Is a monolithic monster and documentation is out of the date. Create a service file and use init orders as documented. Does not work. Does not run with the android 3.19 kernel that is popular in embedded devices.

I personally really enjoy using Gnome 3 and Wayland. Obviously I think they can both be improved. Thankfully they are both being improved more and more over time. I actually really like the full-screen "start menu" thing. I think it's a very graceful, well thought out design. I immediately got comfortable using it when I first started using a Gnome 3 desktop.

As for Pulseaudio and Networkmanager. I'm largely indifferent. I'll use them when they work & are convenient and avoid them when they don't. Thankfully they are largely avoidable for people who don't like them. I expect ALSA + apulse + the occasional patch for software which doesn't work with those things, is all you need for a Pulse-free desktop.

Also: I don't think it's fair to call Wayland "bloatware". For starters it's not "ware" of any kind: it's not software, it's more like a specification. Secondly: a huge part of the design is about keeping it light and minimal. Namely in these two ways:

• The core Wayland protocols are the absolute minimum subset of features that they think all Wayland compositors will want, no matter what purpose they are being used for (e.g. a desktop, a phone, an in-car dashboard, a bed-side clock screen).
• Part of the reason for working on Wayland was explicitly to make a fresh design to replace X that didn't have all the legacy features X has which are rarely, if ever, used any more. It's a design which is fit for practical modern, purposes.

[starshipeleven]

It's not even a packaging issue. In Arch, one package replacing/superseding another is a routine automated operation that causes 0 breakage whatsoever. I have no idea how he managed to mess that up, you have to literally go out of your way to break that shit.

Good to know that Arch has this covered. It's not uncommon for other distros to do the same either, especially on rolling release.

[starshipeleven]

it's ages since I've seen a sound card without a working mixer, standalone or integrated in the motherboard

You haven't looked at laptops in the last decade?

And even then a lot of cards that do claim "hardware mixing" are in fact software mixing in the driver (on Windows).

[Britoid]

Gnome3: a full screen start menu is horrible to use in over 6 inch displays. Really stupid in a 28 inch 4K monitor. No desktop launchers and the desktop is keyboard focused. A graphical desktop with the poor mouse support, great. You must use a lot of gnome tweaks to make it your liking. The Xfce desktop is freely configurable and works great out of the box with 4K monitors.

Wayland: is bloatware in desktop computers and never will be popular or replace X.

Pulseaudio: buggy, resource hog and cause a lot of problems in gaming and other use. Alsa audio is stable and pro-audio uses jackd.

Networkmanager: uses notifications from the driver stack, user has no control to the hardware. Wicd is stable and you can control your internet devices with it directly.

Systemd: a typical redhat reinventing the wheel software. Adds no value to the sysV init in a point of a normal user view. Is a monolithic monster and documentation is out of the date. Create a service file and use init orders as documented. Does not work. Does not run with the android 3.19 kernel that is popular in embedded devices.

GNOME 3? I like how it works, it works great with a keyboard which is how you're supposed to use it.

Wayland? How can Wayland be bloated, it's a protocol. It's also a portion of the size of X.

Pulseaudio? Okay, give me an alternative. Maybe in the early days it was buggy, mainly due to bad audio drivers (e.g. ALSA) and user-land libraries, but now it works great. It doesn't compete with ALSA, a modern OS needs a modern audio server.

Network Manager? Well, we have systemd-networkd coming as a replacement which imho is much nicer (e.g. nicer config files).

Systemd? It has much more value over sysvinit, I understand you want everything on your system to be a shell script but some of us don't live in the 90s and we want a modern operating system.

Sysvinit is a joke and its a joke that it's still used.

[starshipeleven]

Are you a machine?

Kinda seems like your comment was mechanically produced to try and incite drama or upset.

That's just a more rigorous "man of culture" writing style. It sounds more aloof and retro, in these days of crappy grammar and emoji.

And his analysis is on point. There is an obvious relationship between showing anti-systemd behaviour and being a moron of some sort.