Systemd-Free Debian "Devuan" Planning Their First Developer Gathering This Spring

[Machine]

Not the best systemd thread of all time, not the worst either. Baby steps?

[jacob]

it's got to the point where people hate on systemd simply because they don't want to admit they were wrong about it. there's too much pride.

next the criticism will be something along the lines of "Poettering is trying to get with your gf"

I don't know about GFs but they have already sent death threats to Poettering, discussed whether they should create a virus that would target specifically systemd, and offered powerful "arguments" including that systemd is a NSA backdoor and that it will only ever work on x86.

wasn't FreeBSD considering switching to launchd which inspired systemd?

It's a known fact that FreeBSD proponents in fact use MacOS. Systemd, pulseaudio, avahi, cairo and wayland were all designed closely inspired by their MacOS counterparts. But that's one of those truths that must never be told.

Sometimes I feel that those haters actually don't mind systemd, pulseaudio, avahi and other similar things, as long as it's not under the GPL and is not running on Linux.

Or, in a slightly different way, they see and recognise the need to move beyond the Unix "philosophy" and enjoy using an OS that does that, but Linux must never be allowed to go that route.

Go figure.

[tuxd3v]

Devuan maintainers are not logical, pulseaudio is a bigger bomb than systemd.

Pulse Audio is also a bomb, but I don't put it in the same category..
A init system is something completely different, its not like a self contained application..

[tuxd3v]

Exactly, and watch how this thread will turn completely toxic with people who use systemD doing just that. Bashing, insulting and cursing out people who want init-freedom.

I second that!
It is indeed very visible, they are the toxic ones, but they call toxic to others..

Only because the 'others' decide to maintain the route they have been tracing for decades now..
They change only what its better to change, what is good.. is to keep and improve...evolutionary steps..

The newcomers, now are hunting...

[intelfx]

I try similar thing months later and give up on my original idea (because systemd always gets in my way), now I update some packages and get "systemd-libs conflicts with libsystemd, uninstall? [y/N]" and I proceed with uninstalling that piece of shit libsystemd only to find out half the apps won't even launch now. So I manually copy all missing files in /usr from the original .iso back and have it work (yes, I know the setup is beyond repair at this point, but I don't care since it was a temporary VM only). God what a waste of half an hour.

Can systemd just go fuck itself? I'm sick of it controlling everything and getting in my way. I've never had this kind of issues on any other VM without it. Just fuck off already.

That was a package rename. I have no idea how you managed to mess that up. But honestly, if you are having problems with upgrading an Arch installation, then I don't think your opinion regarding init systems holds any weight.

[starshipeleven]

I'm still not seeing what's "crap" about ALSA.

I said (specifically for the low-level part)
ALSA drivers have very wild levels of quality, and don't have a particularly cohesive low-level interface beyond some basic stuff.

A noticeable part of Pulse issues were in fact ALSA drivers being shit and requiring driver-specific workarounds.

If I was running a super lightweight desktop, I'd probably prefer to just use ALSA directly and perhaps combine it with apulse

I don't give a shit about the sound subsystem, really. As long as it works and I don't need to go and edit files to fix it I'm ok with whatever. I'm no "golden ears" so I don't notice any audio lag or "quality loss" due to software mixing.

Which is why I'm mostly biased towards ALSA. The amount of times I had to go fix that crap (the userspace part) vastly outnumbers the times I had issues with Pulse.

[starshipeleven]

I install Arch VM for test compiling some stuff. To ease on storage, I mount a squashfs/overlay into usr. But no, I can't unmount it later, because systemd locks it. Of course, it always has to be systemd that gets in my way.

I try similar thing months later and give up on my original idea (because systemd always gets in my way), now I update some packages and get "systemd-libs conflicts with libsystemd, uninstall? [y/N]" and I proceed with uninstalling that piece of shit libsystemd only to find out half the apps won't even launch now. So I manually copy all missing files in /usr from the original .iso back and have it work (yes, I know the setup is beyond repair at this point, but I don't care since it was a temporary VM only). God what a waste of half an hour.

Can systemd just go fuck itself? I'm sick of it controlling everything and getting in my way. I've never had this kind of issues on any other VM without it. Just fuck off already.

3 issues here:

-why aren't you using a chroot for compiling like everyone else (this is easymode on Arch as it's literally their install tutorial that teaches you how to use a chroot to install it), as a chroot does not need any kernel or init or anything more than what you ACTUALLY need, so even if you are a noob and must save space for some reason you are still covered.

-why are you blaming systemd for a packaging issue in Arch (and this isn't the first time the fuckers break systemd packages)? I mean that's Arch packagers changing name of the systemd library package and causing a conflict and massive breakage on update, which is imho VERY BAD as it's a core library, how is that a systemd issue?

-why ar you using a distro you are a noob with?

[starshipeleven]

Priceless. It literally explains the entire meme that systemd owns your PC here.

Q: "My system won't boot because systemd craps out, what do I do?"
A: "That's a problem with you, because you want to boot your PC, and systemd clearly doesn't want it, so it's your problem not systemd's, because it took control of your PC."

It's a problem with you because systemd follows configuration and all it does is documented. If you fail to understand written text in your field of work it's your own issue.

[dkasak]

I'm sure if you're running a desktop environment swapping between wireless and wired, Network Manager probably works very well. However, I tried getting it to work with wired connections and a bridge, and it was a damned nightmare.

Just FYI - In the very early days of systemd ( Gentoo, early adopter ), I had a lot of trouble with systemd and bridged networking ( was running a bunch of data warehouse appliances in KVM, for development ) until I discovered that systemd-knetworkd does a damned fine job at it:

https://major.io/2015/03/26/creating-a-bridge-for-virtual-machines-using-systemd-networkd/

Never looked back.

[trek]

I can also see why some people are quite satisfied with just using ALSA directly when they have a working mixer allowing multiple apps to play sounds at once.

it's ages since I've seen a sound card without a working mixer, standalone or integrated in the motherboard