Ubuntu 11.04 Is Prepping For Mesa 7.10, X Server 1.10

[deanjo]

Miles, I didn't quite understand your post. The proprietary drivers don't necessarily support new X and kernel versions as soon as they come out, but the open source drivers should always work with the new X & kernel versions and (if I read correctly) you talked about testing the open source drivers.

If you're saying "your proprietary drivers don't always support bleeding edge kernel/X and so I'm not using your open source drivers either" then I don't have an answer for that.

Well it's pretty clear what he is trying to get at. Nvidia's track record with supporting newly released versions of stable X/kernels has been exemplary (usually same day) where as ATI's blobs have tended to be absurdly slow in releasing support for these new versions.

[bridgman]

Ahh, OK, so you think the other poster is basically saying that having immediate support for the open source drivers isn't enough, that they need immediate support for the proprietary drivers as well ?

[deanjo]

Ahh, OK, so you think the other poster is basically saying that having immediate support for the open source drivers isn't enough, that they need immediate support for the proprietary drivers as well ?

Yes, especially until the free drivers are on par in performance and features with the blobs. Nobody likes to wait months on end for utilizing their cards to their best capabilities.

[SyXbiT]

Ahh, OK, so you think the other poster is basically saying that having immediate support for the open source drivers isn't enough, that they need immediate support for the proprietary drivers as well ?

Many Linux users simply want the best driver (from a performance/stability standpoint)
They don't care if it's open or closed.
And, for anyone who wants to use a recent kernel, they can't use Catalyst.
I really want to buy an ATI. I believe in OSS, and I like that they're trying. but despite years of me reading on Phoronix that ATI is catching up to nVidia, it simply isn't true yet.
Catalyst is far far far behind the nvidia binary blog.
I've been burned before by buying ATI only to finfd it not work well (Radeon 4870 a while ago), and I won't be burner again.
Strictly buying nVidia until Catalyst (or OSS driver) are truely able to match the nVidia binary blob.
And even when the OSS does improve, it will probably not be on the latest generation ATI card, meaning if I want an ATI card I'll need a 3rd gen ATI.

I really don't mean to complain bridgman, but Phoronix has fooled lots of people into thinking that the ATI driver is as good as nVidia, causing many to buy and be burned (myself included).
Most Phoronix articles from 2 years ago ONLY compared benchmarks of ATI/NVIDIA, completely forgetting to mention stability, features etc....
I personally don't care if an ATI beats an nVidia by 4fps in a benchmark. I simply want support for the latest stable kernel/X.org, hardware accelerated video (which Phoronix tricked everyone into thinking was right around the corner on ATI..........), and support for compositing window managers (compiz etc..). Oh, and no screen tearing when watching a movie.
Right now only the nVidia binary blog does these, but I'll be sure to get an ATI if things change

[bug77]

Ahh, OK, so you think the other poster is basically saying that having immediate support for the open source drivers isn't enough, that they need immediate support for the proprietary drivers as well ?

I buy Nvidia for precisely the reasons you mentioned. And it helps that their drivers are as fast as their Windows counterparts. Do I absolutely need that level of performance? No. But I appreciate the support.

[blackiwid]

Guys, first its not true that Nvidia does this all so perfekt like you tell, there was a API Switch before one or two years, there aswell as catalyst, nvidia also did not support the new api version for several months. Thats always the point, with proprietary drivers you are always depend on your hardware-manufactor. You can nothing but asking and asking. Blob installation and support-times always are behind the free ones, its only a question how much.

You also say most linux users dont care about the free drivers, thats a statement without numbers you can present, a guess not more. But even if thats true for you, why did you buy a ati or better amd card. It was clear that Nvidias blob is faster and better just the gap between gots closer, because the nvidia linux drivers are at the same level then the windows drivers there could not be hope that amds driver would become faster then the one from nvidia at most the same speed.

And phoronix could not test the time between drivers and api changes because at that time there was no difference between the two manufactures.

you also say most linux users don?t care about opensource, and the developers should just give you good blobs. I disagree with you at this point at all. and even if the users wants this, you have to pay developers to build such crappy blobs, because if they release their not always perfect opensource stuff you pay nothing for it.

GNU/Linux is about opensource or free software how you like it, not caring about that I cannot understand. Go use Windows with superp binary blobs with no api problems.

If I could make the decitions by ati I would stopp developing the catalyst at all the developers from it should then be working to make the open driver even better. (look the last benchmarks on the phoronix site, it first goes ahead in front of the catalyst, by openarena at fullhd resolution.

But I maybe agree that do here like the ATI blob will be a good thing did maybe misslead the one or other a bit. The ATI blob sucks and it will always suck. But thats ok, the free driver developes in a hurry and is the best free linux driver availible. if they implement just the video-acceleration over the gpu the driver is nearly perfekt.

[miles]

Miles, I didn't quite understand your post. The proprietary drivers don't necessarily support new X and kernel versions as soon as they come out, but the open source drivers should always work with the new X & kernel versions and (if I read correctly) you talked about testing the open source drivers.

If you're saying "your proprietary drivers don't always support bleeding edge kernel/X and so I'm not using your open source drivers either" then I don't have an answer for that.

Basically you're saying I can get an HD 6950 today, and it's supported by the open source drivers?

Because if not, the only choice I've got if I'm buying a decent card and need to be able to also use it to test development distributions is still NVidia.

So, can I go and get an ATI card today (HD6950, HD6870 for example) and have it supported under a recent Linux distribution (Debian experimental for example), or do you reckon I'd better get an Nvidia card?

And if distribution testers/developer can only use non-ATI cards, how can we expect the integration of ATI drivers (open source and proprietary) to improve?

Note: I might be mistaken and the situation improved since I bought my last (Nvidia) card, but then I expect Phoronix would have talked about it. And I was favouring ATI when I looked for a new card, since my previous card was an Nvidia that died after 1 year and a half...

[bridgman]

So, can I go and get an ATI card today (HD6950, HD6870 for example) and have it supported under a recent Linux distribution (Debian experimental for example), or do you reckon I'd better get an Nvidia card?

HD68xx support is upstream so will be supported if your distro has sufficiently recent driver code or you pick up "edgers"-type driver packages.

HD69xx support isn't out yet but work is underway.

That said, if you're looking for a Cayman-class board you probably want to be using proprietary drivers anyways unless you are dual-booting.

[miles]

Ahh, OK, so you think the other poster is basically saying that having immediate support for the open source drivers isn't enough, that they need immediate support for the proprietary drivers as well ?

No actually, as long as i can have decent 2D and 3D acceleration on a modern card I'm satisfied with it. I perfectly now that the open source drivers won't let me play Oil Rush, and I also now that the ATI blob isn't up to par with Nvidia, but I can live with it. No support at all when running a recent (recent = not 6 month old Ubuntu with 1 year old Xorg) is the main problem, I can still reboot an old install if I want to game.
So, 6950 and latest Xorg?

[miles]

That said, if you're looking for a Cayman-class board you probably want to be using proprietary drivers anyways unless you are dual-booting.

I can dual-boot with an old distribution when needed for playing games. It's almost as much a hassle as dual-booting Windows, but at least I can still work with it.
Nice to hear that ATI situation seem to be slowly improving though, last time I had to replace my graphic card (1 year and a half) there was no support at all for recent ATI cards.