Streams vs. GBM: The Fight Continues Over NVIDIA's Proposed Wayland Route

[pal666]

Community. This is not something unusual, this year AMD created AMDGPU driver, I think whole point of which is to transfer burden of supporting kernel module and xorg/wayland binding of AMD's proprietary driver to community.

but community already told nvidia to go fuck itself, so community isn't going to do this. amd created amdgpu driver in community-friendly way, that is the difference

We are talking about the free software. Nothing can stop nvidia from forking compositor, nothing can stop distro maintainer from taking this patched version, if it will solve other problems. And later maintainers of GNOME will be forced to merge this branch.
But I think propability of this development is low. My bet - after some grunt GNOME developers will implement this themselves.

you are living in some fantasy world where everyone is nvidia slave. stop abusing drugs. in reality nvidia will cry and switch as they did with xrandr, kms, etc

I believe nvidia developers started this controversy not because they hate humanity, but because EGLStream/EGLImage aproach is better.

i believe you are idiot who thinks nvidia has some reasons other than money and stupidity. better approach is gbm, nvidia will switch few years later, as it always has done historically

[pal666]

Now if what NVIDIA are saying is true, and that eglstreams provides a 10% or more improvement over GBM, while being less abstraction, then that's reason enough to be having this discussion.

it is not true. now what?

Also please remember that while Mesa and the Wayland dev's have years of display protocol experience, no one knows NVIDIA drivers and architecture like NVIDIA engineers.

it will only matter in nvidinux. linux in general has to support all hardware, even that for which eglstreams do not work. and btw nvidia drivers do not matter at all. their hardware is known for mesa developers doing nouveau, their driver should be fixed if it is broken, instead of adding workarounds to linux

[Passso]

After reading all those @pal666's posts I feel the need to go on Amazon and buy a NVidia card.

[starshipeleven]

After reading all those @pal666's posts I feel the need to go on Amazon and buy a NVidia card.

Go on Ebay, it's cheaper there.

[Khrundel]

You expect the very community who has just rejected NVidia's code to be willing to maintain it?

I dunno... Did Supreme Community Overlord said his decision? Because otherwise that rejection just mean that several guys won't do some job which doesn't mean nobody will do that job.

This will boil down to the question whether GNOME needs NVidia more, or NVidia needs GNOME more. And even if the former is the case, GNOME developers have demonstrated in the past that they can stick with their principles and make unpopular decisions.

More precise question is not "who of them needs more" but who will lose more in case agreement won't be reached. I think nvidia has nothing to lose.

By the way, googling about EGLStream/EGLImage, I've found this: https://www.x.org/wiki/Events/XDC201...ompositors.pdf
So, one accusation is wrong: nvidia haven't presented their idea when all job is done, they explaining their point at least year and a half.

[Khrundel]

again example of idiotic conclusion from you. the option for compositor developers is to support wayland+gbm, x clients will be handled by xwayland forever because some clients will never be upgraded

facepalm.jpg
Toolkit and DE authors will have to support X11 forever not because of old x-apps. Users with nvidia cards, willing to have adequate 3D performance will never install new DE if it will not work with nvidia proprietary driver. So, distribution and DE must include and support xorg.

1) their "implementation" breaks wayland,

Sorry, I will not take your word for it.

2) "maybe" doesn't count. maybe they should go fuck themselves

They are free to do anything. Fucking themselves or contributing development.

3) they have to implement same codepath in all des, not just to one or two

In all? Even in CDE? No, pal, when their codepath lands in one popular DE (GNOME, KDE, Mate, Cinnamon, Unity8 etc), all other will have to catch up.

[starshipeleven]

Toolkit and DE authors will have to support X11 forever not because of old x-apps. Users with nvidia cards, willing to have adequate 3D performance will never install new DE if it will not work with nvidia proprietary driver. So, distribution and DE must include and support xorg.

Wow, so much self-importance, like if you paid a product and are entitled to something. Well it's not like that even on windows. Even if you paid.

Distro MANTAINERS aren't mainly DEVELOPERS, they package and preconfigure, their development capability is very limited, usually to GUIs and user-oriented tools, bug fixing, and so on. Also, they are VOLUNTEERS for the most part, and have thus no kind of obligation towards anyone. If they cannot support something they drop it.
Just look at systemd, the distro mantainers of most distros around made a choice and everyone using them must comply (remember the vocal minority of "veteran unix admins" or something, that troll to no end about this).

Consider that as others said, Wayland has been developed for embedded devices firstly and is backed by more or less everyone with a passing interest in embedded devices (i.e. not people that give a fuck about Linux Desktop, and are on the payroll of a big company).
If the guys there decide that NVIDIA can go fuck itself, NVIDIA will adapt and use that interface after much more whining, the world won't end and everyone will still be able to use NVIDIA cards on Wayland unless NVIDIA decides to go full-retard mode and leaves this sector open to AMD and Intel to play in.

Still, I'm waiting for a coherent explanation on the "why NVIDIA cannot just use what everyone uses already and stop whining?" question.

Did they claim anywhere that their driver cannot run without this gimmick? what is it using currently?
GBM probably like everything else as there isn't anything else right?

In all? Even in CDE? No, pal, when their codepath lands in one popular DE (GNOME, KDE, Mate, Cinnamon, Unity8 etc), all other will have to catch up.

That's already an awful lot of code, and it is NOT a given that others will care about it.
It's much easier to just change their driver interface to something less stupid.

[chithanh]

I dunno... Did Supreme Community Overlord said his decision? Because otherwise that rejection just mean that several guys won't do some job which doesn't mean nobody will do that job.

GNOME is not ruled by a benevolent dictator like Linux is, true.
But so far, the only GNOME developer who commented on this has come out against this move. Nobody has stepped forward saying, yes we want it and are going to maintain it.

More precise question is not "who of them needs more" but who will lose more in case agreement won't be reached. I think nvidia has nothing to lose.

The NVidia engineer wrote in that thread how they had to incorporate Google wishes for NVidia's drivers in ChromeOS, even though they said they considered it a bad idea. NVidia wanted to get into Chromebooks.
Also NVidia is used a lot in Linux workstations, and GNOME is the default desktop environment for the big workstation distros. Which is probably an overall small number of GNOME users but a rather big share of NVidia income.

By the way, googling about EGLStream/EGLImage, I've found this: https://www.x.org/wiki/Events/XDC201...ompositors.pdf
So, one accusation is wrong: nvidia haven't presented their idea when all job is done, they explaining their point at least year and a half.

In fact, NVidia have been told all the time since they first presented it that this was a bad idea.

[pal666]

Toolkit and DE authors will have to support X11 forever not because of old x-apps. Users with nvidia cards, willing to have adequate 3D performance will never install new DE if it will not work with nvidia proprietary driver. So, distribution and DE must include and support xorg.

did i told you that you are idiot? nvidia will not ignore wayland forever, it will cry and switch few years later, as usual

Sorry, I will not take your word for it.

you wouldn't need if you just read eglstreams discussion on wayland-devel. buy why would you read it when you could just pull random bullshit nvidia propagandsa out of your ass

In all? Even in CDE?

yes if they need acceptance. but as i said landing is not enough, someone has to maintain it. nvidia isn't goig to do that.

No, pal, when their codepath lands in one popular DE (GNOME, KDE, Mate, Cinnamon, Unity8 etc), all other will have to catch up.

HAVE TO ???!!!111
isn't it funny that now you are not opposed to "have to" in free software world
nvidia slaves live in some alternative reality where everyone is bound to nvidia's will. nobody will have to catch up and even landing in one de is doubtful, though i guess you could label some fringe de popular and bribe its developer. btw, do you imply that unity will switch to wayland or that wayland will have to catch up to unity?

[pal666]

After reading all those @pal666's posts I feel the need to go on Amazon and buy a NVidia card.

what can be better than idiots feeling the need to suffer from self-inflicted pain? don't forget to return and pray on forums for wayland switching to eglstreams for additional amusement