Kubuntu, KDE Has Little Hope For Ubuntu's Mir

[duby229]

I guess it's true what they say about bliss.

[duby229]

The best integration of the linux desktop right now is Ubuntu. Neither fedora, or openSUSE, or slackware wor arch is anything close to it. Combine with the fact that they try to push Ubuntu to come preinstalled on hardware it will be the best thing happening to linux in the last decade. Stop bitching about Canonical they are the only ones really putting money in promoting linux desktop. They make deals with hardware vendors. That is what got Microsoft so popular and that is what will get Canonical popular. There are a lot of things that Microsoft got right. Emulate them don't fight them. You just want to be different for the sake of being different without realizing that being different doesn't get you dominant in the desktop area. A lot of the behavior that gets you into power is pretty much standardized thoroughout history. Thinking that this time it will be different for those who want to get into power is simpy a delusion. You will have to emulate a lot of the behavior of those who got in power before you if you ever hope to get in power yourself. So for Canonical they seem to be on the right track for now.

Don't complain. Just remember that for 15 years all of you fanbois of other distros than Ubuntu couldn't get shit for market share. Now somebody means business and you feel threatened. It's okay to feel threatened. They are better. Superior in every way. It is the reason you resist them. That in itself shows me that they actually have a chance if they silence you. And it's really not that hard to make you not be heard especially with their marketing machine. Your screams simply do not register.

Again. Emulate those that got in power before you if you ever want a chance to get in power yourself. That is what you never quite understood. You wanted to be really different without realizing that being different just doesn't cut it and it will always make you a niche player. Canonical on the other hand understood that and what it takes to actually have a chance. Now they are simply executing that plan. And it works. After all Ubuntu is the most popular distribution. And if they don't get mired down with your idealistic bullshit they might even take on windows who lately lost its way.

Canonical doesnt put money into the linux desktop. That's just a flat out lie. When was the last time they contributed any code to any major desktop component? They write their own projects for their own use. That doesnt put money into the linux desktop at all.

EDIT: And don't you think it's kinda the point that Canonical doesnt listen? X devs, Wayland devs, GTK devs, Gnome devs, KDE devs. They don't listen to any of them.

EDIT2: Fuck power. That's the reason I started using linux in the first place.

[Awesomeness]

No, the most successful one is Google.

No. Look up what the term “distributor” means. I know that you are referring to Android but when e.g. HTC sells phones running Android, HTC is the distributor in that case.
Anyway, from the context it's clear that GNU/Linux is the topic here, so for you hair splitting people: Red Hat is the most successful GNU/Linux distributor.

Yeah really. While it may not be entirely accurate to say that Unity *is* Gnome - it is certainly accurate to say that Unity is a Shell for Gnome 3 (because it very much is).

That's propaganda spread by Canonical to shut up whining GNOME users after Canonical announced to no longer support GNOME.
Unity is not written using GNOME technologies: Currently it uses Nux as toolkit (not GTK or Clutter) and Compiz as WM (not Mutter). The on-screen keyboard is Maliit (Qt-based), not the GNOME's. The display manager is LightDM not GDM. To access online services, Qt-based Accounts-SSO is used instead of GNOME Online Accounts (the GNOME community actively boycotts Accounts-SSO).
Xfce uses more GNOME technologies than Unity.

How is “a shell for GNOME” defined anyway? Is it any shell used by a distribution bundled with a handful of GNOME applications? Does the use of Nautilus as Ubuntu's default file manager turn Unity into a GNOME shell?

Yeah but not a lot of people use redhat desktop, is not impressive at all, and frankly fedora sucks right now. The whole point of redhat is their services business model for enterprise

Enterprises use desktops, too. RHEL is installed on countless corporate desktops around the world. Red Hat makes more than one billion US dollars profit per year by only providing services around Linux. Canonical doesn't even come close.

[ninez]

The best integration of the linux desktop right now is Ubuntu. Neither fedora, or openSUSE, or slackware wor arch is anything close to it. Combine with the fact that they try to push Ubuntu to come preinstalled on hardware it will be the best thing happening to linux in the last decade. Stop bitching about Canonical they are the only ones really putting money in promoting linux desktop. They make deals with hardware vendors. That is what got Microsoft so popular and that is what will get Canonical popular. There are a lot of things that Microsoft got right. Emulate them don't fight them. You just want to be different for the sake of being different without realizing that being different doesn't get you dominant in the desktop area. A lot of the behavior that gets you into power is pretty much standardized thoroughout history. Thinking that this time it will be different for those who want to get into power is simpy a delusion. You will have to emulate a lot of the behavior of those who got in power before you if you ever hope to get in power yourself. So for Canonical they seem to be on the right track for now.

Unity kinda sucks and it isn't as popular as you claim (and you know it! ... Reality does not mesh with your fantasy). Canonical is dumping money into the *Ubuntu Desktop* - not the Linux desktop, nor the larger linux community... Nor does Canonical wield any power in any actual market. You're also apparently not aware that Ubuntu was not the first, nor the only distro to be (or currently) certified, pre-installed and/or shipped by OEMs. Vendors have supported RedHat, Suse, etc for years. - This shit is nothing new, boss - and Canonical isn't even a profitable company. (they yield little to no power, the best they can do is be #3 on distro watch and piss off a lot of developers by being two-faced)...

btw, When was the last time Canonical made hundreds of millions of dollars? or had 1 billion in cash reserves? (that they actually created through their own commerce? - ie: not being funded by Mark's big earnings from the dot com bubble?).. When was the last time that Canonical reported something like this;

September 2005
Red Hat reports a 42% year-over-year growth rate with $65.7 million in revenue for its fiscal second quarter results. This compares to growth rates of -4.9% for Novell and 9.4% for Microsoft.

If Canonical is the 'power house' that you claim they are, then how come they do almost no 'heavy-lifting' in terms of development and contributions to the linux ecosystem? why is it that Redhat has a lot more going on than Canonical? (that's rhetorical, but if you want to write some moronic answer - go for it - i am sure everyone will get a laugh!).

Don't complain. Just remember that for 15 years all of you fanbois of other distros than Ubuntu couldn't get shit for market share. Now somebody means business and you feel threatened. It's okay to feel threatened. They are better. Superior in every way. It is the reason you resist them. That in itself shows me that they actually have a chance if they silence you. And it's really not that hard to make you not be heard especially with their marketing machine. Your screams simply do not register.

They may 'mean business', but for the 8-9 years imo all they have shown is that they don't know how to run one.

Again. Emulate those that got in power before you if you ever want a chance to get in power yourself. That is what you never quite understood. You wanted to be really different without realizing that being different just doesn't cut it and it will always make you a niche player. Canonical on the other hand understood that and what it takes to actually have a chance. Now they are simply executing that plan. And it works. After all Ubuntu is the most popular distribution. And if they don't get mired down with your idealistic bullshit they might even take on windows who lately lost its way.

Redhat didn't emulate MS - they have managed to change the IT landscape over several decades, taking substantial money out of MS' pockets and into their own. -> ie: they've made much bigger strides in linux adoption in the IT industry, than Canonical/Ubuntu ever have. Which is *important* because 'desktop linux' would really suck without all of the work, funding, collaborations and partnerships with various companies, developers and users that got our stack to the point it is at now, that has made the linux desktop viable today...

Frankly, if you think all of these FOSS projects / developers are seeking power, or want to be 'ruled over' and controlled by canonical (or even could be for that matter) it's you who is living in your own Steve Balmereque porno fantasy (which doesn't surprise me, by the way you talk).

A big part of FOSS is freedom, not a shady grab for power to have control over others - that is abuse... It's about a level playing field... Honestly, you should just install/use Windows - that's clearly more up your alley ~ and in reality, as soon as Ubuntu has a bug you can't fix, that is what you're probably going to do any way.

[zeke123]

hijacked by true believers

Another chance to debate hijacked by the koolaid drinking fanbois who see ANY criticism of their precious similar to insulting their mothers.

So you then have children like Sarmiento throwing insults and childish comments left and right attacking the messenger and doing like all people who want to detract attention avoid talking about the message.

Grasslin makes great points here:

Frustration and lost Motivation

Before I go into more detail I want to make one thing clear: Canonical is totally allowed to develop whatever they want. I?m totally fine with this and don?t care whether they develop another display server, an own os kernel or yet another desktop shell. I couldn?t care less. It?s Canonical/Mark?s money and he can invest it in any way he considers as useful. I wouldn?t even care if it would be proprietary software, that?s all fine.

What is not fine is causing a major disruption in the free software ecosystem by giving false technical arguments and doing bold statements about software Canonical does not contribute to. This is not acceptable. This was very frustrating and destroyed lots of trust I had in Canonical. It will be difficult to rebuild this trust. Canonical can be glad that it is the free software world and not the normal corporate world. There were quite some statements which could have raised the legal department in the normal corporate world[3]. It also cost lots of motivation at least on my side and I even questioned whether it?s still worth to be a member of the free software ecosystem. Instead of working together we now have a situation where members of the ecosystem become a competitor and which badmouth part of the software stack. A very frustrating situation.

There certainly are valid reasons for developing Mir which also make sense. Unfortunately they have not been presented so far. I?m quite sure that I know the reasons and if they would have been said straight away it would have been for me and other projects probably much easier. It would have taken away the frustration which the announcement caused and we would not need to discuss it at all, because those question marks would not exist. But apparently Canonical decided to give false technical arguments over the real ones.


but instead we get the usual 'he's jealous' or 'haters gonna hate' quality of discussion.
Or worse, 'you cant talk about this because they do good things' or 'theyre our only hope'.

Pathetic.

Its like debating with Justin Bieber fans.

[ninez]

That's propaganda spread by Canonical to shut up whining GNOME users after Canonical announced to no longer support GNOME.
Unity is not written using GNOME technologies: Currently it uses Nux as toolkit (not GTK or Clutter) and Compiz as WM (not Mutter). The on-screen keyboard is Maliit (Qt-based), not the GNOME's. The display manager is LightDM not GDM. To access online services, Qt-based Accounts-SSO is used instead of GNOME Online Accounts (the GNOME community actively boycotts Accounts-SSO).
Xfce uses more GNOME technologies than Unity.

No, that's not propaganda. It's not just Unity that we are talking about - It's the whole damn OS, Desktop and underlying components. Yes, heavy amount of gnome technology in Ubuntu. Have you ever even bothered to look how *few* packages it requires to get Gnome-Shell running in Ubuntu; http://www.webupd8.org/2012/10/how-t...esktop-in.html

In case, you weren't aware - the Gnome Stack is more than just a few packages AND just to bring you upto speed - the reason you only have to install a few packages in Default Ubuntu to get GS running is Because Ubuntu/Unity is a gnome-based desktop...

How is “a shell for GNOME” defined anyway? Is it any shell used by a distribution bundled with a handful of GNOME applications? Does the use of Nautilus as Ubuntu's default file manager turn Unity into a GNOME shell?

try google next time; http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Desktop_shell

ubuntu doesn't use a 'handful of gnome applications' - they use most of the gnome stack, just modified and removing/replacing bits that give them better integration in Unity. and NO using Nautilus on the desktop doesn't make it Gnome-Shell (that is just stupid, no offense). For example, i have several different desktop shells that i _could_ switch between without logging out - while using the gnome stack; Cinnamon, GS and Compiz - they aren't complete DEs - they just run on top of them. where as Gnome, KDE, etc are full DEs,

[Alejandro Nova]

http://nvidianews.nvidia.com/Release...aming-8ac.aspx

http://linuxgamenews.biz/2013/01/21/amds-linux-drivers-offer-improved-gaming-performance/

It seems, they do care. Mainly because of Valve and you probably know, which distro they focus on.

You just said it. They care about VALVE, not Ubuntu.

[e8hffff]

If Mir become the better choice then it would be foolish for Kubuntu Developers to skip it. I see more politics of late than what's best for the Users.

[Ericg]

If Mir become the better choice then it would be foolish for Kubuntu Developers to skip it. I see more politics of late than what's best for the Users.

Thats the problem though... there is technological advantage to Mir. In fact if you read the blogpost it even has very specific disadvantages. Mir is an entire display server built around Unity Next and Canonical's dream. Martin was told very point-blanketly that the API and ABI could break over night even past a 'freeze' and it'd be up to KDE to fix the breakage on their ends. If Mir succeeds it will be because Canonical used their position to force it down everyone else's throats. And I really don't think that will happen. Red Hat and Intel both have enough money to throw at Wayland to make sure it doesn't die, and most likely will win.

[ninez]

Something tells me that Martin will get over his butthurt and just support whatever Canonical throws at him, or Red Hat for that matter. We will have both wayland and mir and it's gonna be nice to see all these devs complaining.

That is your opinon. It doesn't seem to match reality though.

http://www.omgubuntu.co.uk/2011/11/poll-result-15800-votes-cast-unity-named-most-popular-desktop

Plus Shuttleworth gave another poll but something tells me you don't trust anything coming from him.

Astute observation; yeah, Mark is full of shit a lot of the time. Ironically, right at the beginning of your article;

This isn?t so surprising given that a) the vote was held on an Ubuntu-orientated�website, and b) Unity is the default interface of Ubuntu 11.10.

But such a strong result does show that Unity is not as ?unpopular? as many disgruntled voices in the community proclaim it to be.

So it's not as unpopular... lol. You know that doesn't equal a majority right? it's also very outdated and didn't include LinuxMint, i would guess this because this poll was taken just before Ubuntu took the hit they did with Mint.

They want to become a powerhouse. Right now they aren't the same size as Red Hat no one was saying that.

That wasn't my point. (saying you were saying that). You keep going on about Canonical, power their business savyness, and all of this BS - i was pointing out they in fact; don't make money, poorly execute plans and have no power - beyond spreading FUD and misinformation to bolster their image... I was pointing out to you - what a real FOSS company does - not this bullshit known as Canonical :\

And then you wonder why linux is at 1%. Level playing field. It sounds so loserish don't you think? You can't play the game so you want others to become as inferior as you are just to be on a leveled playing field. And by the way I have both Windows and linux installed. Because that's how I roll. I have no affinity for anything nor loyalty. I just use what is best at this moment for what I need. Sometimes it's windows, sometimes it's linux.

No, you did not understand what i meant. a Level playing field is about not having companies locking up code, taking advantage of their users, customers, etc and not exploiting other people's work whom you rely on. It's not a question of cool or not at all. It's more a question of having having a greater amount of transparency, freedom and not having 1 entity dictating everything down the line. - Canonical/Ubuntu try to present themselves as FOSS leaders, they want control, but have proven they are largely incompetent when it comes to working within this community (or in business).

Oh, you have loyalty all right - pages of nonsense proof that; Ubuntu fanboy apologist. beyond a shadow of doubt. ~ and no one said you couldn't be both a Windows user and Ubuntu princess - you totally can....especially, in your case