XWayland Nukes The NVIDIA EGLStream Backend

[Daktyl198]

And yet you think wayland is a replacement for that?
AHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAAHAA

Yes, because it's simply not needed anymore. If you need remote access, use VNC/RDP.

Is that because they DONT HAVE SCREENS maybe.
LOL

... Are you serious? You just tried to imply that all of the top 500 supercomputers required X11, and now are trying to play it off like I'm the idiot for pointing out the obvious fact that none of them use X11 (or any graphical programs) at all?

Imma going to keep calling you on it:
https://www.theverge.com/2021/12/9/2...otocol-support

Oh look, a messaging protocol based off Apple's usage of DASH in AirPlay and not at all related to a remote desktop protocol, let alone one that comes anywhere near X11 (or wayland)!
Side note: when will you learn that nobody, not even people that use X11 today, use X11's network transparent mode? It's too limiting, harder to setup, and has the same latency and bandwidth requirements as a VNC/RDP connection. It's a useless feature from a time that no longer exists.

[mSparks]

use VNC/RDP.

your suggestion is to manually remote desktop into 10,000+ servers without screens or anything graphical installed.....

ROFL...

Let me know how that works out for you.

You just tried to imply that all of the top 500 supercomputers required X11

How is that so hard for you to understand.

Do you also think you need a web browser installed to run an html server?

Because you are as much as claiming webgl replaces https and expecting people to take you seriously.

when will you learn that nobody, not even people that use X11 today, use X11's network transparent mode? It's too limiting, harder to setup, and has the same latency and bandwidth requirements as a VNC/RDP connection. It's a useless feature from a time that no longer exists.

Because it is not true, no matter how long you keep pissing into the wind trying to pretend it is true.
from

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=jQwiD4eFcZA

to XPRA, X11 network and its HPC features are the primary reason everyone uses linux workstations, and you dont even seem to understand what or who they are... Pretending you speak with authority on the matter is nothing short of hilarious. Especially since you strike me as an "installed linux cos you couldnt afford a Mac" kinda person.

[Daktyl198]

your suggestion is to manually remote desktop into 10,000+ servers without screens or anything graphical installed.....

ROFL...

Let me know how that works out for you.

And pray tell how X11 works any differently in this context?

How is that so hard for you to understand.

Do you also think you need a web browser installed to run an html server?

Because you are as much as claiming webgl replaces https and expecting people to take you seriously.

Because nobody running these supercomputers is utilizing it's extremely specialized compute power to run an X11 server, or anything graphical at all. All of the management is done using remote shells or proprietary interfaces/protocols. Not sure where your webgl/https metaphor is coming from. Maybe you should look into that reading comprehension thing I mentioned earlier.

Because it is not true, no matter how long you keep pissing into the wind trying to pretend it is true.
from
to XPRA, X11 network and its HPC features are the primary reason everyone uses linux workstations, and you dont even seem to understand what or who they are... Pretending you speak with authority on the matter is nothing short of hilarious. Especially since you strike me as an "installed linux cos you couldnt afford a Mac" kinda person.

The fact that something exists, does not mean it's used by more than a small handful of people. Just look at the view count on the video you linked ffs. As for xpra, it's basically a custom version of vnc. It acts as a compositor on the "host" machine, and renders the application window. Then sends the bitmapped image over the network to the client machine. It does this, because X forwarding sucks ass and doesn't work with most modern applications.

Again, Linux is amazing in HPC situations for many, MANY reasons. X11 is not one of them. Maybe back in the 1980s, but it hasn't been relevant in HPC in 20+ years. As for the last bit, nice try. I've been using Linux as my main OS since I was 15 because it helped me be a better sysadmin for the servers I was in charge of.

[mSparks]

And pray tell how X11 works any differently in this context?

The application running on one of the nodes imports xcb, then connects to either a proxy (if merging multiple nodes together) or the users terminal, e.g.

https://github.com/benoit-pierre/XCB-demos/blob/master/tshape/shape.cc

^ equivelent in wayland would likely be 100,000 LOC and only work on linux. => wayland is garbage.

Because nobody running these supercomputers is utilizing it's extremely specialized compute power to run an X11 server, or anything graphical at all.

meanwhile, in the real world e.g.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-dzV9DWqMlc

https://kb.iu.edu/d/bdnt

vs

https://bbs.archlinux.org/viewtopic.php?id=288596

Any molecular visualization program usable with nvidia GPU and wayland
I've tried pymol, vmd and chimera but, if they open, the menu are completely black, or unusable in some way.
I'm on Nvidia geforce rtx 3050, nvidia proprietary driver, and wayland.

does not mean it's used by more than a small handful of people

I see your

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Argumentum_ad_populum

And raise you the fact "the linux desktop" never actually happened, "small number" > "nobody".

Plus your "small number" is currently:

https://companiesmarketcap.com/nvidia/marketcap/

^ not from selling GPUs to gamers.

[access]

Aren't all your examples of remoting into a control node to run some desktop app that only visualizes the result of cluster runs. Eg VMD controls and visualizes the results of NAMD jobs. So no X11 or anything graphical running on the actual cluster compute nodes.

Also, pymol appears to work under Wayland, at least on Debian Trixie.... it's even wayland native

https://i.imgur.com/1uRt4lh.png

[mSparks]

Aren't all your examples of remoting into a control node to run some desktop app that only visualizes the result of cluster runs. Eg VMD controls and visualizes the results of NAMD jobs. So no X11 or anything graphical running on the actual cluster compute nodes.

Also, pymol appears to work under Wayland, at least on Debian Trixie.... it's even wayland native

https://i.imgur.com/1uRt4lh.png

Yes the whole point of X11 is it lets application developers deploy GUI applications on machines with nothing graphical installed -HPC.
The applications still need to be X11 native.
This means zero developers will ever write native wayland applications, because doing so excludes everyone who uses linux (people writing and using HPC stuff) and every other OS (because wayland only works on linux).

Xwayland is then necessary to use any linux application, but that makes wayland completely pointless, "wayland" is just pointless bloat, might as well just use xorg-server directly to use X11 applications for the significant perf improvements

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WCAjoko-3LI

and none of the disadvantages of wayland.

->The whole "wayland replaces X11" story is actually therefore
"wayland replaces X11 for Microsoft Word, Excel, Powerpoint, Autodesk and Photoshop users" = wayland replaces nothing for anyone.

[Daktyl198]

The application running on one of the nodes imports xcb, then connects to either a proxy (if merging multiple nodes together) or the users terminal, e.g.

https://github.com/benoit-pierre/XCB-demos/blob/master/tshape/shape.cc

^ equivelent in wayland would likely be 100,000 LOC and only work on linux. => wayland is garbage.

1. That sounds an awful lot like just remoting in to every individual machine? Aside from the proxy, of course. But assuming you using XPRA style app forwarding with a Wayland compositor, you can do the same thing.
2. XPRA style app forwarding is entirely possible with Wayland using nested compositors
3. Wayland is not "Linux only". Nothing about the protocol requires the Linux kernel in any way, shape, or form. In fact, Microsoft is currently writing their own Wayland compositor for WSL and are planning on using it exactly like XPRA.

meanwhile, in the real world e.g.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-dzV9DWqMlc

https://kb.iu.edu/d/bdnt

vs

https://bbs.archlinux.org/viewtopic.php?id=288596

Once again, you simply link to thing proving something is possible, which I've never argued against. How about linking to something that actually proves it's used on "every top 500 supercomputer in the world"?

I see your

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Argumentum_ad_populum

And raise you the fact "the linux desktop" never actually happened, "small number" > "nobody".

Plus your "small number" is currently:

https://companiesmarketcap.com/nvidia/marketcap/

^ not from selling GPUs to gamers.

Reading comprehension fails you again. You should read that article again, then come back to the thread. There is a big difference between saying "Nobody believes that is true, therefore it must not be true" (ad populum) and saying "Nobody uses this thing, and the numbers you yourself are linking to proves that".

Not sure when or why "the linux desktop" ever came up. Also also, there is no way in hell you're claiming right now that every single machine that has an Nvidia card in it runs X11. If you're claiming that, you better have some proof to back it up lmao.

[access]

Well, NAMD, the actual computational/HPX part doesn't seem to have any requirements on any X11/Xorg headers or libraries.

Same with all the distributed computing we do at work; the compute nodes are completely headless and don't have any display server (or client) related packages installed at all… because why would they. The result can then be viewed/consumed on your platform/display server of choice be that Quartz, DWM, X11, or Wayland.

[mSparks]

1. That sounds an awful lot like just remoting in to every individual machine? .

So, I'll give you the benefit of the doubt for a second.

an X11 server runs on the users machine and each node connects to that (many to one), each node does not require anything graphical installed, just an NIC.
A VNC/RDP server runs on each node and the user connects to them. (one to many) each node requires a graphic server installed and working.

1^10000 may "sound like" 10000^1, but they are not equal.

[mrg666]

So, I'll give you the benefit of the doubt for a second.

an X11 server runs on the users machine and each node connects to that (many to one), each node does not require anything graphical installed, just an NIC.
A VNC/RDP server runs on each node and the user connects to them. (one to many) each node requires a graphic server installed and working.

1^10000 may "sound like" 10000^1, but they are not equal.

You seem to be unaware but debate has been over for along time now and X11 is retired for a lot of reasons that doesn't need to be repeated. People smarter than you have already decided and the world followed. Sorry man, go get a life.