Originally posted by mSparks
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XWayland Nukes The NVIDIA EGLStream Backend
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Originally posted by MorrisS. View Post
Wayland has just introduced... Xorg has been running for 30 years now, but is going to be deprecated. When directX12 were introduced the major gaming titles were based on DrictX9. So? Newest technology needs its time to be integrated. Wayland is superior to Xorg bud needs time to be integrated adapting the system to it. Do you want to return 32bit just because time ago was the most widespread among the applications? IpV6 is less widespread against IPv4m so why not stay with IPv4? Because it is obsolete. As well as Xorg is obsolete. It works but it's obsolete.
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Originally posted by Jaxad0127 View Post
You mean this? https://www.phoronix.com/news/Wayland-DRM-Lease-Merged
Several compositors support it.
several "vendors" have hacked sketchy support on outside of and despite wayland, but that still leaves it not supported and buggy more often than not - vs "just working" on X11.
plus, as we see from this thread, chances are anything developed for wayland would be removed after a few years anyway "because it got in the way".
No one will ever risk any kind of meaningful investment on that modus operandi.
But apparently all that is negated by the fact wayland supports explicit sync, just interested why and to who that actually matters.Last edited by mSparks; 20 March 2024, 01:05 AM.
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Originally posted by mppix View Post3 I probably dont undertand this statement. People (including Nvidia) tried to rewrite Gnome and KDE backends for EGLstreams and showed that it does not work without serious revisions to EGLstreams that never materialized.
4 i dont understand this either. You probably dont have much exposure to industry standards. They tend to be intentionally slow to ensure compatibility and buyin of all shareholders. The fact that updates are made means the standard is well and alive.
If you are looking for slow: look the time scales needed to update internet protocols ...
Also, examples of dead pojects that cannot be updated: VNC, X11, ...
4. Internet protocols are actually updated fairly fast. Adoption rate is an entirely separate matter. But scale compared to other projects was never my point. I was just saying that, objectively, the Wayland protocol extensions needed for day to day usage of a desktop have taken a very long time to come out mostly due to endless debates and bureaucracy. This, in turn, has been the #1 reason for delay in Wayland adoption. This was meant as a reply to the first comment, which implied that the GBM vs EGLS debate severely set back Wayland development/adoption, but it's just not true.
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Originally posted by Daktyl198 View Postmostly due to endless debates and bureaucracy. This, in turn, has been the #1 reason for delay in Wayland adoption.
Wayland was 100% designed for lightweight embedded systems. It never saw widespread adoption in that market because mobile device manufacturers (google/ apple/samsung etc) were entirely capable of rolling their own, and did exactly that.
Then there is a seperate "faction" that want to utilise it on desktop, but don't actually have the power to add anything to the design a desktop actually requires, and even seemingly dont use or have any idea why people use linux desktops and servers in the first place.
This whole EGL debarcle is then just a manifestation of that infighting.
"X.Org development documentation glossary defines EGL as "Embedded-System Graphics Library".[5]"Last edited by mSparks; 20 March 2024, 03:11 AM.
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Originally posted by mSparks View Post
It seems to me more "infighting" than that.
Wayland was 100% designed for lightweight embedded systems. It never saw widespread adoption in that market because mobile device manufacturers (google/ apple/samsung etc) were entirely capable of rolling their own, and did exactly that.
Then there is a seperate "faction" that want to utilise it on desktop, but don't actually have the power to add anything to the design a desktop actually requires, and even seemingly dont use or have any idea why people use linux desktops and servers in the first place.
Unfortunately, those people did not even attempt to come up with possible solutions for the rest of the subsytems X.org was in charge of, which is quite a few. The main one being anything having to do with input. This left the rest of the ecosystem to try and hash out a standard together without any sort of "leader" in the space who could take charge, unlike what we had with X.org.
I wonder what a future with Mir would have looked like, as it set out to solve most of the issues that Wayland did regarding latency and round trips but without changing the "display server" dynamic that we had all become used to.
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Originally posted by mSparks View PostWayland was 100% designed for lightweight embedded systems
Originally posted by mSparks View PostIt never saw widespread adoption in that market
UI system vendors in that area, e.g. the Qt company, even have Wayland compositor frameworks to make custom compositors easy to write.
Originally posted by mSparks View Postbecause mobile device manufacturers (google/ apple/samsung etc) were entirely capable of rolling their own, and did exactly that.
Embedded device vendors use a extremely wide range of hardware options and mostly "roll their own" Linux via Yocto or similar systems.
Originally posted by mSparks View PostThen there is a seperate "faction" that want to utilise it on desktop, but don't actually have the power to add anything to the design a desktop actually requires
The Linux core graphics developers (who used to work on Xorg) as well as the GNOME and KDE desktop shell developers.
Most protocols are directly derived from the needs the latter two faced in creating their respective desktop shell product and modifying their applications to run on them.
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Originally posted by Daktyl198 View Post
This isn't really true. Wayland was developed by many X.org developers who got tired of maintaining an outdated specification
Kristian Høgsberg (710 commits), Benjamin Franzke (32), Tim Wiederhake (22), Pekka Paalanen (20), Peter Hutterer (18), Callum Lowcay (17), and Tiago Vignatti
What do we do now? Wait. Yes, but while waiting. What about hanging ourselves? – Samuel Beckett, Waiting for Godot
"By contrast, Høgsberg summarizes the initial goals for Wayland by saying, “The core idea is that all windows are redirected, we can do all rendering client side and pass a buffer handle to the server, and the compositing manager runs in the display server."
X11 is maintained by Mesa, Intel AMD and Nvidia plus a few others
wayland span out of xorg development during the rise of mobile devices with limited or no network connection - where X11 made no sense. Its direct competitors are surface flinger on android and whatever ios uses. All the other original wayland developers have long since abandoned it afaict.
the direct equivelent to xwayland that has and will end up seeing widespread use is called matter, and is a colab between a large number of big industry players including google and samsung.
Last edited by mSparks; 20 March 2024, 04:27 AM.
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Originally posted by mSparks View PostThat is absolutely not true. original wayland developer is basically Kristian Høgsberg
Kristian Høgsberg (710 commits), Benjamin Franzke (32), Tim Wiederhake (22), Pekka Paalanen (20), Peter Hutterer (18), Callum Lowcay (17), and Tiago Vignatti
Originally posted by mSparks View Post"By contrast, Høgsberg summarizes the initial goals for Wayland by saying, “The core idea is that all windows are redirected, we can do all rendering client side and pass a buffer handle to the server, and the compositing manager runs in the display server."
Originally posted by mSparks View PostX11 is maintained by Mesa, Intel AMD and Nvidia plus a few others
Originally posted by mSparks View Postwayland span out of xorg development during the rise of mobile devices with limited or no network connection - where X11 made no sense. Its direct competitors are surface flinger on android and whatever ios uses. All the other original wayland developers have long since abandoned it afaict.
Originally posted by mSparks View Postthe direct equivelent to xwayland that has and will end up seeing widespread use is called matter, and is a colab between a large number of big industry players including google and samsung.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Matter_(standard)
With that last "point", I know you're just trolling. And if not... I seriously hope somebody teaches you reading comprehension and critical thinking skills.
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