Microsoft Is Writing Its Own Wayland Compositor As Part Of WSL2 GUI Efforts

[mdedetrich]

Which is historical fact, but doesn't appear to have any relationship to why nVidia drivers are still so horribly buggy with multiple monitors on linux

I use X11 with NVidia blob on multiple monitors without issues

, or why their OpenGL implementation is so horribly non-standard

You mean AMD's?

If you are talking about Windows you can blame games, a lot of games (particularly AAA ones) don't follow the OpenGL spec and because of this NVidia has to hot patch games so they even run properly.

OpenGL is an outdated mess anyways, which is why Vulkan was created.

, or why crash to desktop is so common on windows even still.

Yeah I am calling this one out as crap, at least for a reasonable definition of "common".

I guess your point does prove beyond any doubt that nVidia's drivers have been horribly buggy and non-standard for a considerable amount of time.

Nope, thats just your own point of view.

[Terrablit]

I swear to God, the Linux community is absolutely brimming with fedora-cherishing ESR-nonsense-toting neckbeard-grooming autistic "well-akchually"-spouting conspiracy enthusiasts. It's like when you walk into a filthy room and flip the switch - thousands of them just scurry away from the light. The main obstacle to the year of the Linux desktop is the Linux fanbase. Nobody whose focus is on productivity will be willing to congregate with the perpetually unwashable masses who screech endlessly about shills when people point out legitimate issues with the product as fair criticism. You're all the guy at the dinner party who won't shut up about comics after you casually mention that you enjoyed the last Marvel movie. The one wwho talks directly in your ear and corners you so you can't engage with anyone else without rudely telling him to leave you alone. You're the guy who wears the band t-shirt to the show, and the guy who criticizes the choice of colors in a movie as not being faithful to the book. It's absolutely unbearable for most people to be around you, so you flock to the internet and coat it with cheetos, mountain dew and despair so that the rest of us can't enjoy it. Fucking thanks for that.

Get it straight. Linux fucking sucks. Everything else sucks, too, from Windows to OSX to Solaris to C64 to Arduino. It's just that everything sucks differently. We still use these things we hate despite them sucking because in many cases, they're still the best available tool for the job. A skilled person will obviously note the issues with their tools and honestly criticize them. They just won't blame the tools for problems because, if there's nothing better available, then everyone's in the same boat and it's a waste of time to say what everyone already knows. Plus, we suck as much as our tools suck. Because we made them suck. Hell, some of us delight in the fact that our tools suck just so we can look smarter when we use 30 thousand identical cubes and a minecraft server to fry an egg. We're that ridiculous of a caricature of familial disappointment.

Linux has too many goddamn knobs to it. And they're not like the focus adjusting controls on a camera where you just spin the ring until the image is clear. No, there's fifty fucking buttons, three services and a DBUS socket to take off the lens cap. And every one of the autistic wankers who advocate that Linux is about choice contribute to the platform being an absolute clusterfuck. They won't let anyone clean it up, rewrite anything, or start a new project without popping up to interject like an RMS demon from the 8th circle of hell dispatched to tell you why you're wrong about everything ever and Unix philosophy is the cure to disease if you just pipe the vitamins through grep to remove the coating and route the output directly up your anus. Clearly you wouldn't be sick if you just wrote a bash script to pkill all the cancer processes in a loop. Unix luddites are the essential oil MLM peddlers of the technosphere.

I'm going to call it right now. Unless we spend significant, consistent effort on consolidating the platform and on shushing the people who make it beyond annoying to attempt to make a living using FOSS tools as tools instead of as a lifestyle, we won't ever go above 20% marketshare even if Microsoft fucking wrote Linux for us and ported their entire suite of IP over with an MIT license. Fucking Ballmer could chant "Linux, Linux, Linux" in a Very Sweaty Christmas Keynote and 80% of the world wouldn't even bother because it's a hassle and the fucking internet demands you make it a religion rather than a 9 to 5 job.

The majority of the biggest critics of Linux are often simultaneously it's biggest advocates. We see the potential in a free, open platform. We see the potential in the customization, but hate that there's a *need* to customize it out of the box. We know it can be better, and we know it's going to take time and a lot of broken traditions. We appreciate what's there, but it's clearly unfinished. And none of the talking heads of the open source world are Gods to us. They're just regular people who took something broken and made it a bit better. There are no gods, sacred texts, or idols. Just work to be done until the work can finally work for itself.

[Mez']

In my country most of this is running on Microsoft Teams.

Which is unstable, crash-prone, and doesn't remember settings (camera off or Outlook availability status).
Honestly, in my company, we've had huge issues with it, and it doesn't have much to do with the sudden network load from homeworking.
It's another half-baked MS app that crashes.
Everything MS does or touches ends up crashing much more regularly than any other app. I don't know how they manage to have at the same time the platform that crashes often (got a BSoD on Windows 10 no later than Tuesday, and I don't have admin rights) and all their apps being buggy and eventually crashing.
It's an absolute feat to achieve such a low level of stability with this kind of financial power.

[duby229]

I use X11 with NVidia blob on multiple monitors without issues



You mean AMD's?

If you are talking about Windows you can blame games, a lot of games (particularly AAA ones) don't follow the OpenGL spec and because of this NVidia has to hot patch games so they even run properly.

OpenGL is an outdated mess anyways, which is why Vulkan was created.



Yeah I am calling this one out as crap, at least for a reasonable definition of "common".



Nope, thats just your own point of view.

No, in fact RadeonSI is a mesa driver and mesa implements OpenGL flawlessly. It's a fact nVidia's OpenGL is horribly non-standard. Just look at games that were developed on nVidia hardware as a perfect example. It's easy to tell because -mesa- had to make a bunch of quirk workarounds for their drivers that -are- actually standard compliant.

Just be very cautious of any game with the "The way it's Meant to be played" campaign. Basically all of them are horribly broken because of nVidia.

[mdedetrich]

No, in fact RadeonSI is a mesa driver and mesa implements OpenGL flawlessly. It's a fact nVidia's OpenGL is horribly non-standard. Just look at games that were developed on nVidia hardware as a perfect example. It's easy to tell because -mesa- had to make a bunch of quirk workarounds for their drivers that -are- actually standard compliant.

Just be very cautious of any game with the "The way it's Meant to be played" campaign. Basically all of them are horribly broken because of nVidia.

Did you read what I said?

NVidia's drivers had to implement OpenGL differently because games didn't even follow the OpenGL specification properly. If NVidia had a perfect OpenGL implementation than half of the AAA games on windows wouldn't even run. You have examples of games which didn't even refresh buffer at the end of the frame which NVidia had to hot patch.

The NVidia blob on Linux shares the same driver as Windows, including all of these hot patches. You can blame game developers along with their crunch time mentality for this one

[vladpetric]

Linux has too many goddamn knobs to it. And they're not like the focus adjusting controls on a camera where you just spin the ring until the image is clear. No, there's fifty fucking buttons, three services and a DBUS socket to take off the lens cap. And every one of the autistic wankers who advocate that Linux is about choice contribute to the platform being an absolute clusterfuck. They won't let anyone clean it up, rewrite anything, or start a new project without popping up to interject like an RMS demon from the 8th circle of hell dispatched to tell you why you're wrong about everything ever and Unix philosophy is the cure to disease if you just pipe the vitamins through grep to remove the coating and route the output directly up your anus. Clearly you wouldn't be sick if you just wrote a bash script to pkill all the cancer processes in a loop. Unix luddites are the essential oil MLM peddlers of the technosphere.

Yes, what I said in a parallel thread is that while Apple became super-successful by taking ownership and full responsibility of their entire stack, end-to-end (while overcharging and locking people in, yes, which is obviously not good), the free software world was going in the opposite direction - splitting projects and passing the buck.

You can't do good desktop with this model.

[duby229]

Did you read what I said?

NVidia's drivers had to implement OpenGL differently because games didn't even follow the OpenGL specification properly. If NVidia had a perfect OpenGL implementation than half of the AAA games on windows wouldn't even run. You have examples of games which didn't even refresh buffer at the end of the frame which NVidia had to hot patch.

The NVidia blob on Linux shares the same driver as Windows, including all of these hot patches. You can blame game developers along with their crunch time mentality for this one

It's fine to fix quirks, but to make quirks default? Seriously retarded. I don't think nVidia are dumb like that. They definitely did it on purpose. They even made a campaign out of doing it.

[jo-erlend]

The successful non-Linux desktop OSes (Windows, Apple) are considerably less fragmented than Linux desktop, yes.

People don't care about names, remember? We are talking about The Non-Linux OS. By your rules, distinguishing Windows from Mac is just an excuse to hide fragmentation in The Non-Linux OS.

Do you really not understand? You're referring to The Linux OS as if it's something real, but it has no website, no documentation and no contact information. Because it doesn't exist in reality. It's a metaphor. That's why, whenever you start talking about specific aspects of The Linux OS, everything immediately becomes confusing, because no level of competence allows anyone to know what you're talking about. Even the simplest question becomes impossible to answer.

Try answering this simple question: «How do I change audio outputs in The Linux OS?»

The _fact_, whether you like it or not, is that Gnome and KDE are different software packages made by different groups of people, like Windows and Mac. The fact that apps from Gnome and KDE can easily be mixed and matched is because they're far _less_ fragmented than Windows and Mac. Because you cannot automatically use a Mac app on Windows and vice versa the way you can with Gnome and KDE.

The only person you could ever convince that Gnome and KDE are just two different names for The Linux Desktop OS is someone who has no idea what you're talking about. You're confusing people who needs to learn and you're disrupting productive communication for people who does know what they're talking about.

Why not refer to Arch Linux and Red Hat Enterprise Linux as The KDE? You could do that if you wanted to confuse people. Eventually, some people would start to understand what you mean when you say The KDE; that you're not actually talking about KDE, but some random set of technologies that you have simply defined as The KDE for no good reason.

You say Gnome and KDE are fragmented because they're the same thing, but apps doesn't look the same. But the fact is that they're not the same thing and that's why apps doesn't look the same.

Once you stop pretending that everything is part of the same system, then all the confusion goes away.

[Mez']

Ever since Windows Vista (where Microsoft redid their while graphics/GUI architecture) and from Windows 7 (when the graphics drivers stabilized), Windows has been ultra stable (not a single crash since Windows 7) and the performance of gaming/desktop/GUI is miles ahead of Linux.

I mean come on, Windows is even able to update the graphics driver without rebooting now, try that with Wayland/X11.

Linux desktop stack is still having to deal with immature attitudes when it comes to debating things like GBM/EGL rather than learning from technically superior solutions.

While up to Vista, Windows desktop had been far less stable than Linux, after Windows 7 things changed a lot.

Don't know what you're both smoking... For the last 3 years, on 3 different projects with 3 different IT departments managing my work laptops (I don't have admin rights as I'm on the business side), my Windows 10 installs have had a BSoD every now and then. And I'm not the only one in my colleagues. I don't see stability here. I call BS.

[Mez']

• Its usage is literally about 100x greater than Linux (at least for desktop which we are talking about).

Given that Linux distro users (crossed from different sources) should be between 1.5 and 3 % of the total of desktop users, math was probably not your forte at school...

Again where did you get the minimum 2% from?

He got it from every stat survey along the years, as I have. These figures have been quite stable. Google Trends was clearly demonstrating this as well. I don't know if it still exists though. But in any case, if you take separate surveys and cross-reference them, it has remained stable. So yeah, it's pretty safe to assume something around 2%, maybe 1.5, but could be 2.5 just as much.