Unplugging Logitech USB Receivers Has Been Causing The Linux Kernel To Crash

[jacob]

ntoskrnl has been hybrid since Vista or something.

"Hybrid" kernel doesn't mean much. Some people use it in the sense of a kernel that allows loadable modules (which includes pretty much everything except OpenBSD). Some use it to denote a kernel that runs internal services as active processes in kernel space (both Windows and Linux are like that), some say it's a message-passing kernel in which the various services run in kernel space (that's DragonflyBSD, but neither Windows nor Linux fit that definition, except for some specific functionalities). Some say that Windows is hybrid because it runs some drivers in Ring 1, but that's only on x86. Another definition has it that Windows id hybrid because it runs some drivers in user space (but so does Linux)...

[Quackdoc]

I really do love the logitech logibolt dongle. I just wish the good peripherals for them weren't so expensive. a decent mechanical logibolt keyboard is too pricy IMO

[Paradigm Shifter]

Hm. I've noticed something slightly different on newer kernels with my KVM switch. One of my systems will just refuse to acknowledge that the KVM USB is connected at boot. The other systems are fine. I was wondering whether it was a BIOS bug, but now I'm wondering if it's related to my G703h. I'll dig out my old wired mouse and test.

[avis]

"Hybrid" kernel doesn't mean much. Some people use it in the sense of a kernel that allows loadable modules (which includes pretty much everything except OpenBSD). Some use it to denote a kernel that runs internal services as active processes in kernel space (both Windows and Linux are like that), some say it's a message-passing kernel in which the various services run in kernel space (that's DragonflyBSD, but neither Windows nor Linux fit that definition, except for some specific functionalities). Some say that Windows is hybrid because it runs some drivers in Ring 1, but that's only on x86. Another definition has it that Windows id hybrid because it runs some drivers in user space (but so does Linux)...

AFAIK Linux has very little hybrid in its architecture. Correct me if I'm wrong but only FUSE (filesystem modules in user space) looks like something which you could call "hybrid", everything else about the kernel is pretty much monolithic.

Windows on the other hand has partially moved certain features from kernel space into user space, i.e. GPU drivers and since Windows Vista a GPU driver crash has normally been recoverable (AFAIK it's not limited to GPU drivers, other classes of drivers are "fixable") which is not something that's possible under Linux where any driver crash is fatal.

[jacob]

AFAIK Linux has very little hybrid in its architecture. Correct me if I'm wrong but only FUSE (filesystem modules in user space) looks like something which you could call "hybrid", everything else about the kernel is pretty much monolithic.

Windows on the other hand has partially moved certain features from kernel space into user space, i.e. GPU drivers and since Windows Vista a GPU driver crash has normally been recoverable (AFAIK it's not limited to GPU drivers, other classes of drivers are "fixable") which is not something that's possible under Linux where any driver crash is fatal.

Linux runs parts of its Bluetooth stack in user space (audio codecs for example are pipewire modules, not kernel modules) and of course GPU drivers have both a kernel part and a user space part. There *are* many cases of non-fatal driver crashes that don't kill the Linux kernel, this includes USB, network drivers and in many cases even filesystems. In fact the fact that on Linux a GPU driver crash kills the whole system seems to be the exception compared to other types of drivers.

Besides, this is one of the many definitions of "hybrid", as mentioned in my previous post. Looking at Wikipedia (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hybrid_kernel), Windows NT was called a "hybrid kernel" because its compatibility subsystems a.k.a. kernel personalities were implemented in user space... which is exactly what Wine does on Linux too.

My point is not which kernel is "hybrid" and which isn't, not even that a "hybrid kernel" can mean pretty much anything and everything you like. The point is that the issues relating to driver crashes etc. don't have much to do with the structure of the kernel, and both Linux and Windows are pretty similar in that regard. Windows can survive most GPU driver crashes which Linux usually can't, but for other drivers it's a different story; Linux can survive quite a lot and Windows can also get a full system crash.

[avis]

There *are* many cases of non-fatal driver crashes that don't kill the Linux kernel, this includes USB, network drivers and in many cases even filesystems.

I manage bugzilla.kernel.org and most if not all the crashes that you've just listed have been fatal so far. Maybe you could show examples when the Linux kernel does not crash because I've yet to see those. Oopses are not fatal, but panics are panics.

[-MacNuke-]

Windows on the other hand has partially moved certain features from kernel space into user space, i.e. GPU drivers and since Windows Vista a GPU driver crash has normally been recoverable (AFAIK it's not limited to GPU drivers, other classes of drivers are "fixable") which is not something that's possible under Linux where any driver crash is fatal.

Mesa also does run in user-space. Also (like on Linux) some part of the GPU driver run in kernel space in Windows. See https://learn.microsoft.com/en-us/wi...l-architecture

Also GPU kernel driver reset is also a thing in Linux. Saw it multiple times due to firmware bugs. Same with Wifi drivers.

[direc85]

I've been thinking that my laptop refuses to shutdown when it has some dock attached. Every dock has always had an Unifying receiver connected. This fix actually fits my symptoms perfectly. Let's see...

[aviallon]

DuckDuckGo does indeed show zero results after 1999...

Screenshot from 2023-10-15 13-04-31.png


😂

I must disagree.

[justinkb]

Given the recent pace of kernel development vs the lack of serious testing, I'm absolutely convinced there are thousands of bugs like this just waiting to be exposed by a combo of relatively obscure hardware and relatively rare use case scenario. And no, I'm not a troll Linux hater like others in this thread