Originally posted by archkde
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Last edited by Vistaus; 07 April 2023, 01:52 PM.
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Originally posted by r_a_trip View Post
They are also getting substantially less for their money. With a paltry 90 day warranty the consumer bears all the risks for the hardware. Shoddy manufacturing? Congratulations, you just got had. "But... but... you can get an extended 2 year warranty!" So what just happened to paying substantially less than Europeans?
As a European, I don't have to think about it luckilly. You sell into the European common market, you are bound by a minimum 2 year warranty on consumer electronics, regardless of fantasy clauses in your shrinkwrap agreements. Note that it is a minimum 2 year warranty. If the laws of a member state provision for a longer term, you are bound by that.
Disclaimer: IANAL
If you are importing goods into the European market for retail sale you may be obligated to offer the warranty you're speaking of, but that isn't enforceable outside of Europe generally speaking. While I understand that regulators may want to enforce European regulations on those outside the European union the reality is very different. There has to be bilateral agreements and where those do not exist and a company does not operate European laws aren't enforceable. It's largely up to customs to keep out the goods that don't meet European standards and those in Europe to understand what they are buying and from whom.
It's generally pretty safe to buy from the US/Europe even if you may have qualms in some instances about warranties or quality. Buying directly from China tends to be another story altogether. The bigger issues if you ask me pertain to support, locking products down, repair concerns, and so on and these are things that Europe really hasn't fixed and I'd argue should not be fixed through regulation, but rather should be fixed by market forces and people choosing the companies providing products that they want. Everything is made in China, but not everything is fit for purpose shipped from China. Many good are less than optimal that don't ship from China, but are sold on your local high street too, but generally not great for other reasons. Locking things down and similar sorts of concerns.
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Originally posted by thinkpenguin View PostIt's generally pretty safe to buy from the US/Europe even if you may have qualms in some instances about warranties or quality. Buying directly from China tends to be another story altogether. The bigger issues if you ask me pertain to support, locking products down, repair concerns, and so on and these are things that Europe really hasn't fixed and I'd argue should not be fixed through regulation, but rather should be fixed by market forces and people choosing the companies providing products that they want. Everything is made in China, but not everything is fit for purpose shipped from China. Many good are less than optimal that don't ship from China, but are sold on your local high street too, but generally not great for other reasons. Locking things down and similar sorts of concerns.Last edited by Vistaus; 07 April 2023, 03:55 PM.
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Originally posted by jaxa View Post
At the very least, VPNs hide your real IP from websites and your activity from your ISP. Those are the parties likely to cause you the most problems.
Many VPN providers accept cryptocurrency which could slightly enhance your privacy (most cryptocurrency users are not truly anonymous). Mullvad accepts cash sent to them in the mail.
TOR is the closest thing to anonymity, but even then all of the end points are known, monitored and highly susceptible to correlation attacks. The better strategy is to boycott all big tech to the greatest extent possible to avoid having a profile built on you, practice strict browser privacy settings.
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Originally posted by Barnacle View Post
But as you said, most crypto is tracking every change of hand a token fragment ever made. There is all of the interest in the world of those who track people just to covertly own VPN companies and track you with extra scrutiny for using one. VPN providers are some of the most nameless, faceless companies on the internet.
TOR is the closest thing to anonymity, but even then all of the end points are known, monitored and highly susceptible to correlation attacks. The better strategy is to boycott all big tech to the greatest extent possible to avoid having a profile built on you, practice strict browser privacy settings.
Similarly, a European or American (who isn't a high-value political, military, or business target) might trust Chinese or Russian online services more than domestic ones. Because those countries don't really care what you do.
Just look for the piracy havens and you'll find freedom. 🏴☠️
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Originally posted by Vistaus View Post
That is not true for all EU states. At least here in the Netherlands, if you buy something from outside the EU as a consumer (as a company or reseller it's different), you are bound by the rules of the country you buy from. So in this case, you are bound to the US rules.
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Originally posted by archkde View Post
If you buy something from outside the EU, the contract is governed by both laws. So yes, you are bound by US (in addition to Dutch) law, and the seller is bound by Dutch (in addition to US) law.
Are you even Dutch? Because I am. If you're not, then please stop trying to explain how the law works in my country.Last edited by Vistaus; 08 April 2023, 06:16 AM.
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Originally posted by thinkpenguin View Postbottom of the barrel
You may or may not be understanding the store warranty as these differ greatly and can be confusing if you don't read the fine print (or even if you do). They are generally a profit center for the retailer though and retailers do need to make money somewhere else they go by-by. Some of these warranties only start after the manufacturers warranty ends. In other cases they are on top of the manufacturers warranty and eliminate the need to deal with the manufacturer. That may or may not be what you want and consumers getting the option instead of forcing a one-size-fits all approach isn't necessarily a bad thing. I certainly wouldn't push warranties on most folks on products that it doesn't make sense for. It can mean lower starting prices for goods in the marketplace and these options simultaneously solve a problem for those who lack the cash and those that have been bitten in the past by products that failed to live up to expectations. Fit for consumption is also not necessarily going to mean it's designed to work for a decade. You can have products that work as advertised, but are cheaper with a shorter life expectancy .
Granted, it's not highly skilled, intelligent people that are offering me these warranties so they could be wrong in their information, but the few pamphlets from Walmart and Sam's I've read implies that they start at the time of purchase.
That sentence I highlighted makes me assume you're not an American. I say that because a very large swath of the economy of America is based on pushing products on folks it doesn't make sense for. You wouldn't do it, but an American would. They don't see it as a way to lower prices to solve poor problems and make the store more accessible to more people. They keep the starting price the same and use the extended warranty as a way to line their pockets. They gamble that you'll buy a 1 year warranty for your 2 year warranty product. They gamble that you'll buy a 1 year warranty on a 1 year warranty product and to forget about the in-store warranty when the product breaks and you come across the manufacturer's warranty in the instruction manual. In-store warranties are not about helping poor people, they're a gamble to pad the pockets of the owner class.
In America when you're too poor to shop at places that have products that have in-store warranties you have to go shop at a Dollar Place and buy your products in macro for inflated prices. Instead of a six pack at Walmart for 2 dollars you get a 2 pack at Dollar Place for 1 dollar.
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Originally posted by archkde View Post
If I actually bought something in the US and then privately shipped it to Europe, you would be correct. However, a company shipping to Europe does have to comply with European laws.
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Originally posted by Vistaus View Post
That's not how it's written in the Dutch law books. It's made abundantly clear that buying outside the EU as a Dutch citizen you're only bound by the other country's law (unless, again, you're a citizen that acts as a company/reseller). And Dutch judges have uphold that more than once, despite any EU law. And Dutch authorities, journalists and even the consumer protection agency have all warned consumers about this. So that clearly goes to show it's different around here.
Are you even Dutch? Because I am. If you're not, then please stop trying to explain how the law works in my country.
Edit: could I have a source for this? I do believe you, but thinking about it again, it's actually quite a crazy law to pass, and certainly not what I would have expected from the Netherlands.Last edited by archkde; 08 April 2023, 08:55 AM.
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