Free Software Foundation Certifies A $99 Mini VPN Router

[Vistaus]

It does not matter whether this is an American company with no divisions in Europe. If you sell goods to European customers, you have to comply with relevant European laws. No matter what you say, you have to offer 2 years of warranty to your European customers. Refusing to repair your product after your "90 day warranty" has "expired" (in reality, it is a 2-year warranty because the law overrides the contract) is simply illegal. Offering a 2-year warranty as a paid service may get you in trouble as well.

That is not true for all EU states. At least here in the Netherlands, if you buy something from outside the EU as a consumer (as a company or reseller it's different), you are bound by the rules of the country you buy from. So in this case, you are bound to the US rules.

[thinkpenguin]

They are also getting substantially less for their money. With a paltry 90 day warranty the consumer bears all the risks for the hardware. Shoddy manufacturing? Congratulations, you just got had. "But... but... you can get an extended 2 year warranty!" So what just happened to paying substantially less than Europeans?

As a European, I don't have to think about it luckilly. You sell into the European common market, you are bound by a minimum 2 year warranty on consumer electronics, regardless of fantasy clauses in your shrinkwrap agreements. Note that it is a minimum 2 year warranty. If the laws of a member state provision for a longer term, you are bound by that.

Disclaimer: IANAL

The customer bears a small bit of risk as the quality of the products are good, but that comes at the benefit of lower prices. If shoddy manufacturing is a concern there is the 2 or even 3 year warranty option. If you look at the prices for goods in the market the US market generally has lower prices than Europe because there is more competition and less regulatory overhead. While you can certainly find examples of higher prices for goods it's often a failure in understanding a market or quality difference in a product or the service provided thereof.

If you are importing goods into the European market for retail sale you may be obligated to offer the warranty you're speaking of, but that isn't enforceable outside of Europe generally speaking. While I understand that regulators may want to enforce European regulations on those outside the European union the reality is very different. There has to be bilateral agreements and where those do not exist and a company does not operate European laws aren't enforceable. It's largely up to customs to keep out the goods that don't meet European standards and those in Europe to understand what they are buying and from whom.

It's generally pretty safe to buy from the US/Europe even if you may have qualms in some instances about warranties or quality. Buying directly from China tends to be another story altogether. The bigger issues if you ask me pertain to support, locking products down, repair concerns, and so on and these are things that Europe really hasn't fixed and I'd argue should not be fixed through regulation, but rather should be fixed by market forces and people choosing the companies providing products that they want. Everything is made in China, but not everything is fit for purpose shipped from China. Many good are less than optimal that don't ship from China, but are sold on your local high street too, but generally not great for other reasons. Locking things down and similar sorts of concerns.

[Vistaus]

It's generally pretty safe to buy from the US/Europe even if you may have qualms in some instances about warranties or quality. Buying directly from China tends to be another story altogether. The bigger issues if you ask me pertain to support, locking products down, repair concerns, and so on and these are things that Europe really hasn't fixed and I'd argue should not be fixed through regulation, but rather should be fixed by market forces and people choosing the companies providing products that they want. Everything is made in China, but not everything is fit for purpose shipped from China. Many good are less than optimal that don't ship from China, but are sold on your local high street too, but generally not great for other reasons. Locking things down and similar sorts of concerns.

Exactly! And it doesn't even have to be from a Chinese brand: even renowned brands like IKEA and Peugeot have or at least had crappy products too. And by design, not by manufacturing. Everyone makes mistakes. Chinese companies do it a little more, but no company is holier than the pope.

[Barnacle]

At the very least, VPNs hide your real IP from websites and your activity from your ISP. Those are the parties likely to cause you the most problems.

Many VPN providers accept cryptocurrency which could slightly enhance your privacy (most cryptocurrency users are not truly anonymous). Mullvad accepts cash sent to them in the mail.

But as you said, most crypto is tracking every change of hand a token fragment ever made. There is all of the interest in the world of those who track people just to covertly own VPN companies and track you with extra scrutiny for using one. VPN providers are some of the most nameless, faceless companies on the internet.

TOR is the closest thing to anonymity, but even then all of the end points are known, monitored and highly susceptible to correlation attacks. The better strategy is to boycott all big tech to the greatest extent possible to avoid having a profile built on you, practice strict browser privacy settings.

[jaxa]

But as you said, most crypto is tracking every change of hand a token fragment ever made. There is all of the interest in the world of those who track people just to covertly own VPN companies and track you with extra scrutiny for using one. VPN providers are some of the most nameless, faceless companies on the internet.

TOR is the closest thing to anonymity, but even then all of the end points are known, monitored and highly susceptible to correlation attacks. The better strategy is to boycott all big tech to the greatest extent possible to avoid having a profile built on you, practice strict browser privacy settings.

Swapping out an ISP that will probably monetize or rat you out in a heartbeat, for a VPN provider that lives or dies by reputation, could be a reasonable trade. Depends on what you're doing.

Similarly, a European or American (who isn't a high-value political, military, or business target) might trust Chinese or Russian online services more than domestic ones. Because those countries don't really care what you do.

Just look for the piracy havens and you'll find freedom. 🏴☠️

[archkde]

That is not true for all EU states. At least here in the Netherlands, if you buy something from outside the EU as a consumer (as a company or reseller it's different), you are bound by the rules of the country you buy from. So in this case, you are bound to the US rules.

If you buy something from outside the EU, the contract is governed by both laws. So yes, you are bound by US (in addition to Dutch) law, and the seller is bound by Dutch (in addition to US) law. It may be true that you have a harder time than a company actually enforcing Dutch law against the seller for financial reasons. Only in some cases for purchases *within* the EU, the seller is not bound by some of the laws of the buyer's country, because it is specified this way in EU law.

[Vistaus]

If you buy something from outside the EU, the contract is governed by both laws. So yes, you are bound by US (in addition to Dutch) law, and the seller is bound by Dutch (in addition to US) law.

That's not how it's written in the Dutch law books. It's made abundantly clear that buying outside the EU as a Dutch citizen you're only bound by the other country's law (unless, again, you're a citizen that acts as a company/reseller). And Dutch judges have uphold that more than once, despite any EU law. And Dutch authorities, journalists and even the consumer protection agency have all warned consumers about this. So that clearly goes to show it's different around here.

Are you even Dutch? Because I am. If you're not, then please stop trying to explain how the law works in my country.

[skeevy420]

bottom of the barrel

You may or may not be understanding the store warranty as these differ greatly and can be confusing if you don't read the fine print (or even if you do). They are generally a profit center for the retailer though and retailers do need to make money somewhere else they go by-by. Some of these warranties only start after the manufacturers warranty ends. In other cases they are on top of the manufacturers warranty and eliminate the need to deal with the manufacturer. That may or may not be what you want and consumers getting the option instead of forcing a one-size-fits all approach isn't necessarily a bad thing. I certainly wouldn't push warranties on most folks on products that it doesn't make sense for. It can mean lower starting prices for goods in the marketplace and these options simultaneously solve a problem for those who lack the cash and those that have been bitten in the past by products that failed to live up to expectations. Fit for consumption is also not necessarily going to mean it's designed to work for a decade. You can have products that work as advertised, but are cheaper with a shorter life expectancy .

Oh, I understand. I always ask the question, "Does this warranty start today or does it start after the manufacturer's warranty?" I've universally been told, "It starts today at the time of purchase." I've never once been offered an in-store warranty that started whenever the manufacturer's warranty ended.

Granted, it's not highly skilled, intelligent people that are offering me these warranties so they could be wrong in their information, but the few pamphlets from Walmart and Sam's I've read implies that they start at the time of purchase.

That sentence I highlighted makes me assume you're not an American. I say that because a very large swath of the economy of America is based on pushing products on folks it doesn't make sense for. You wouldn't do it, but an American would. They don't see it as a way to lower prices to solve poor problems and make the store more accessible to more people. They keep the starting price the same and use the extended warranty as a way to line their pockets. They gamble that you'll buy a 1 year warranty for your 2 year warranty product. They gamble that you'll buy a 1 year warranty on a 1 year warranty product and to forget about the in-store warranty when the product breaks and you come across the manufacturer's warranty in the instruction manual. In-store warranties are not about helping poor people, they're a gamble to pad the pockets of the owner class.

In America when you're too poor to shop at places that have products that have in-store warranties you have to go shop at a Dollar Place and buy your products in macro for inflated prices. Instead of a six pack at Walmart for 2 dollars you get a 2 pack at Dollar Place for 1 dollar.

[skeevy420]

If I actually bought something in the US and then privately shipped it to Europe, you would be correct. However, a company shipping to Europe does have to comply with European laws.

Which I suppose is why they offer a compliant warranty option for y'all. Have you, or anyone else here for that matter, tried to buy one of these? I'm curious if their software automatically upgrades people in Europe to the two year warranty option.

[archkde]

That's not how it's written in the Dutch law books. It's made abundantly clear that buying outside the EU as a Dutch citizen you're only bound by the other country's law (unless, again, you're a citizen that acts as a company/reseller). And Dutch judges have uphold that more than once, despite any EU law. And Dutch authorities, journalists and even the consumer protection agency have all warned consumers about this. So that clearly goes to show it's different around here.

Are you even Dutch? Because I am. If you're not, then please stop trying to explain how the law works in my country.

Ah ok, I'm sorry. I'm not Dutch, so I was not familiar with this aspect of your laws. In principle, laws of both countries apply in international contracts. If one country passes a law stating that all of their other laws are to be ignored in international contracts (which apparently the Netherlands have), then that's how it is (a funny situation may arise if both countries have passed such laws, however…). I'm not sure how much of this applies to EU laws, since these should override national laws, but I'm also not sure how much of this consumer protection stuff is actual EU law, as opposed to national law passed in most EU countries because they all thought it was a good idea.

Edit: could I have a source for this? I do believe you, but thinking about it again, it's actually quite a crazy law to pass, and certainly not what I would have expected from the Netherlands.