China's Alternative To GSoC Is Seeing Some Interesting Summer Open-Source Projects

[coder]

China has never had a policy of forced sterilisation to get rid of the Uighurs

As if you would know? China is hardly the model of a transparent government, much less when it comes to matters like these.

There's been a lot of solid journalism on this subject, using a wide array of sources and methods, from many of the most respected news organizations and journalists in the world. People can & should see for themselves what's known about the ethnic cleansing of Uyghurs from Xinjiang.

The reality China justice system in some ways is more flawed than the USA one.

That's putting it mildly, from what I've heard.

For one thing: https://www.nytimes.com/2015/07/23/w...s-lawyers.html

But this is also off-topic and not an area I've followed very closely.

Yes the china government is telling the truth when they say they don't intentionally target Uighurs.

Again, how would you know? Xinjiang is fairly remote, even within China.

Your entire story about how the Uyghurs don't speak Mandarin and therefore somehow fall afoul of the Chinese legal system falls flat, when you consider that the mass internment of their population is a very recent development (within just the past few years). Plenty of satellite images have been published, showing the build-out of secure facilities to hold them.

[oiaohm]

True, although that doesn't reflect criminal justice reform the USA recently enacted, which is part of an ongoing process.

This is not entirely accurate. There are states which allow prison labor, but it's also not forced labor. Prisoners are given the opportunity to work, as a reward for good behavior. It's still not entirely proper, due to the conflict of interest it creates, which is why it's not allowed in many states.

And another point of distinction is that these are convicted criminals. Even if the US criminal justice system is still imperfect, that's still very different than an entire ethnic population being rounded up.

No sorry convicted criminals bit is not a distinction with the Uighurs, China has never had a policy of forced sterilisation to get rid of the Uighurs but they were a group was massively hit by the China one child policy and yes punishment for breaking this policy was forced sterilisation this was a general law for the complete population. The reality here the laws of china have not really treated the Uighurs well but when you look at the laws the Uighurs are being punished with they are generic laws for everyone. Of course this has not helped that lots of the Uighurs did not understand china common language either. This makes it really simple to get convicted for disobeying a written order.

The reality China justice system in some ways is more flawed than the USA one. China system lacked the mandatory requirement to provide a translator great fun right you don't speak the native china language as what is common with the Uighurs as well so you will not be able to talk to your court appointed lawyer when you do something wrong and get caught. This is not China laws or actions exactly being anti Uighurs. Its more the laws not being generally friendly and the Uighurs group being the least compatible.

China justice system does need some reforms and lots of those reforms would help the Uighurs a lot and many others who are unfairly harmed by their legal system. Yes this is very much like the USA problem. Please note the reeducation camps in china the people there are only given opportunity to work if they work they get to get out sooner. Yes you have the same conflict of interest problem.

coder the reality is the USA justice system with black people and the China justice system with the Uighurs have basically the same set of problems. Its really simple to go hey it has to be ethnic population targeting. Not that a particular ethnic population has particular problem in the Uighurs a language problem that puts them on the wrong side of the countries laws. China case is not targeting a ethnic population but a particular ethnic population being collateral damage of generic laws.

Yes the china government is telling the truth when they say they don't intentionally target Uighurs. This has more meaning than one thinks:
1) the laws are not written to harm Uighurs as they are generic laws.
2) the laws are not written to make sure groups like the Ulghurs get what we would call fair treatment. Remember this number 2 is intentionally targeted treatment.

Yes you do need some target laws of protection on minority groups like the mandatory provide of translators and so on for them. When you don't have them you have china mess.

The differences between the USA and China on this stuff is very small. There is a problem that people are not listerning to what the china government is saying and not thinking is is possible they are telling the truth. Yes when you look at what china saying and you think are they telling the truth you look closer and find the laws harming the Ulghurs are generic laws for everyone in china and the problem is in fact no special treatment leading to unfair time in their legal system. So the government of china is tell the truth. The fact they are telling the truth and then everyone else is presume its not truth means they are not suggesting the correct fixes to china.

When you understand what the problem is you can understand why china responded with baseless to some claims and "completely fabricated" in others and these are true and correct answers. What is called forced labour in china is no different to usa prisonors being given the opportunity to work for good behavour so calling the forced labour claim completely fabricated is what you want to say is it not coder when I say USA has forced labour.

As I said you could write the same things about the USA as what is written about china in a lot of these case if you only had part of the information. The USA has not had laws in a long time that particular target black people. The fact the black people have been over targeted shows how generic laws can end up applied unfairly. Yes this is a very common problem. Generic laws applying unfairly is what happening in China as well. There are many other countries that this happens.

[coder]

the USA has highest prison rates per head of population in the world

True, although that doesn't reflect criminal justice reform the USA recently enacted, which is part of an ongoing process.

and those are also forced labour.

This is not entirely accurate. There are states which allow prison labor, but it's also not forced labor. Prisoners are given the opportunity to work, as a reward for good behavior. It's still not entirely proper, due to the conflict of interest it creates, which is why it's not allowed in many states.

And another point of distinction is that these are convicted criminals. Even if the US criminal justice system is still imperfect, that's still very different than an entire ethnic population being rounded up.

We also know that the USA prison system is highly racist.

Yeah, there's a lot of legacy there, but I'm guessing you don't live somewhere without racism either. It is awfully convenient for you to proffer these indictments as if your own country is a model of perfection.

This is really starting to sound a lot like whataboutism, and I think we shouldn't lose sight of the fact that you're posting this in defense of China's arbitrary imprisonment of an ethnic minority. I wouldn't take pride in such a feat.

in the USA you have a particular level of criminal conviction you are no longer allowed to vote

That's currently a policy in certain states. It's not a Federal law, and it's gradually being repealed in some of the states which had such laws.

About 1/3 of the USA population end up not being vote due to criminal conviction

That's impossible. That would require 1/3rd to have felony convictions and live in states which don't allow ex-felons to vote.

Horrible part here is forced labours around the world are lot more common than one would like. China treatment of the Uyghur is not unique.

So, you're just saying we should let it slide, because "hey, nobody's perfect!" ? By that standard, why not dispense with all human rights? That's the logical conclusion of what you're saying.

Instead, I subscribe to a view that we should criticize all human rights violations, wherever they occur. Some sense of proportionality would also be good.

[coder]

Does anybody care if there's programme backed by those Countries? No. Just.. please be fair.

Legitimate point, although let's try to stick to what's known about this.

• Anyone steal from others. It's just you know about it or not. Or you're objective enough or not.

The IP issues with China broadly fall into two categories:

• Government-sponsored theft of commercially-sensitive IP.
• Enforcement of IP laws

The USA does not have a policy or facility for stealing IP from foreign competitors and providing it to domestic companies. I can't say it absolutely never happened, but there's not a whole system for it, the way there allegedly is in China.

The USA has a legal framework for enforcement of intellectual property rights, and it's used almost to a fault. Traditionally, this is another area where China has been weak. I believe much of that owes to the fragility of the legal system, in China, and the arcane details about corporate governance. But I can't speak authoritatively on the matter.

• USA incite genocide at Indonesia (Indochina?), estimated million lives, at war with Vietnam, estimated millions dead. Iraq, Suriah, Al Qaeda, ISIS. It's just a fraction of their wrongdoings. And you to talk about human rights by CCP? What? Uighur? It's just concentration camps, as there's quite separatist there. Yes, there's mismanagement when in practice of the concentration camps. But not ethnic cleansing like somebody said. Just get a more real data. And it pales compares with what USA and allies did and do. Oh, and for everyone that said it's ethnic cleansing, I hope their countries have some separatist too. Then, let's see what they said about _human rights_ .

First, we can acknowledge that the USA has committed the most serious of human rights abuses (including genocide against Native Americans), if you go back as far as its founding, and there's obviously the sin of slavery. All countries have blood on their hands, if they've been around long enough. And yes, Vietnam and the Iraq invasion were far more recent and all wars are tragic for the civilians caught in the middle. So, those are relevant points.

With that said, we need to look at what's happening today, and call out abuses wherever they're occurring. The standard for behavior cannot be the worst of what was committed by anyone in the past. We should be aspiring to have a more fair and equitable world.

As for whether the treatment of Uyghurs counts as ethnic cleansing, the removal of people from their homeland, separation of families, and forced sterilization are all practices which qualify as ethic cleansing.

In general, any form of collective punishment is not acceptable. It's fair and reasonable to punish criminals, but it's improper to punish an entire population for the actions of a small minority of them.

I've checked from some sources too. Yes, CCP is evil too. But quite a bunch of phoronix dweller just talked like this CCP is the only evil country in this world. I thinks it's not that fair or objective.

Agreed. We should focus on actions and policies, rather than demonizing anyone.

And is it that difficult to watch and learn first about this programme, and the result, before attacking CCP here and there?

I think we can take a lesson from a somewhat common practice among corporations, which is to engage in small-scale public activities to improve their image, even while continuing to act in ways that hurt consumers, employees, or broader society.

So, the view I take is: what I currently know about this Open Source program seems good. And I acknowledge that. China should be able to do good things, even while it has room for improvement elsewhere.

However, a few good deeds don't compensate for major problems, in other areas. I think we want to see China be a better global citizen, and that won't happen by ignoring areas where it needs to improve its behavior.

Oh, and don't feel offended, as I am not talking about you. From my point of view, you're just slightly biased towards USA and allies. I'm more inline with oiaohm and in agreement with majority his post.

Thanks. We need to have hard conversations, and that means sometimes hearing uncomfortable things.

I can say from experience that it's a little harder to hear external criticism of the USA than for myself or my compatriots to say some of the exact same things. So, I can definitely empathize with Chinese who hear comments like these and feel defensive.

As foroiaohm, I think you should distinguish between his feelings and specific factual claims. He has a right to feel however he wants, but his factual claims extend well beyond what his actual knowledge of the American Constitution and legal system can support.

[coder]

I already debunked this deeply flawed misunderstanding of the American system once, which mysteriously got deleted. This is disappointing, Michael, as I hate to see your platform used to spread disinformation. I've toned down my language, as hopefully that's what was at issue.

Because that flaw means that all the censorship in china in theory could implemented in the USA using different means. USA government does have the right to censor the news by indirect means. "no right to censor or insert anything into the news." this is wrong unfortunately. USA government can threaten companies with the effects to business license and so on if they do not censor what the usa government wants they will lose them and can also threaten them the same ways if they don't insert what the usa government wants.

This is incorrect. The US government cannot selectively enforce laws as a way to exert influence. There are at least two legal principles which protect against this abuse of power:

• Prohibition against Arbitrary and Capricious policies
• Due Process

Furthermore, any instance in which the government seeks to use its power in a way that abridges Constitutionally-protected rights, such as Freedom of Speech and Freedom of the Press are grounds for litigation.

This kind of explains why the USA government does not own their own Public Media firm.

It actually does, to varying degrees, but it's unsurprising you didn't know that, since you don't seem to know very much about the USA. However, all of its publicly-funded news networks are designed to be insulated from political interference.

When the US government wants to get a message out, it holds press conferences, issues press releases and (lately) uses media platforms like Twitter. It cannot compel media organizations to cover these statements, nor does it have any control over how they're covered.

Please note youtube was ruled not a "public forum" the reality is all commercial newspapers and tv and radio in the USA are also not a "public forum". The area people in the USA are legally entitled to the first amendment is quite small.

As the Constitution focuses on the relationship between the government and the people, its application is extremely broad. What you're talking about is not a matter of a government's control of its people, but rather between people and other legal entities and therefore subject to laws enacted by the government.

And you apparently haven't considered what it would mean if people had an absolute right to speak on any platform and and in any media. That would mean news papers would have to print every letter and ad they're sent, Television stations would have to air all ads submitted, no matter the content or impact on their business, and internet platforms could be used for unlimited amounts of criminality and other destructive activity without their operators being able to do anything about it.

The Constitution is a very blunt instrument, and is only the foundation of the legal system. The normal tool for regulating society should be laws enacted by elected politicians, which provides a feedback mechanism to help ensure the laws are reasonable and punishments are proportionate. To say "the Constitution should dictate everything" would be like saying "there should be no userspace libraries; that we should instead put all common functionality into kernel".

This is problem USA and China basically can almost restrict free speech the same amount if they want to. So what happening in China could happen just as simply in the USA using different means.

This is so wrong, I don't know what to say about it other than it's what happens when you extrapolate from a deeply flawed and incomplete understanding of the US legal system.

To use another analogy, the way you're holding forth on the American system is like if a lawyer who knew a little Python and heard a few things about Operating Systems decided to make a long post about VirtIO-IOMMU, based on filling in all the missing details with a bunch of assumptions. It doesn't work like that.

The USA has legal tradition of about 250 years, not counting its roots in the British legal system. To practice law, lawyers attend law school and must prove adequate knowledge and comprehension of the system. Constitutional law is an entire academic field unto itself. You cannot just BS your way through this stuff any more than you BS your way into upstreaming a kernel patch without truly understanding what you're changing.

[GI_Jack]

Due to a combination of many decades of poor education and genetic degradation in Western civilizations leading to smooth brains parroting grifters resulting in loss of independent thought.

Ready for another red pill talk?

Fact: Elon owns a huge factory(s) in China, hires CCP agents, pays CCP taxes/bribes...but he is an American hero and champion of freedom???

Any fans of rocketing $AMC?
Fact: Guess who owns AMC? Helping them build a lunar base*diamond hands*

Which is true with most tech companies and has for decades now. Any complaints about "keeping china out of tech", that ship has sailed a very long time ago. Complaints were met with "muh free trade" and "muh free market", same with any attempt to bring it back to the US, for decades.

So, decades later, China decides to contribute to Free software like everyone else. Given context, its more than welcome, and its hard to say otherwise without being a total hypocrit.

[oiaohm]

China uses Uyghur forced labour to program!

Wangling the USA has highest prison rates per head of population in the world and those are also forced labour. Yes some of the USA forced labours will be writing software and working call centres and so on. The USA also has a forced labour program.
https://www.pewresearch.org/fact-tan...tes-in-prison/
We also know that the USA prison system is highly racist. Remember in the USA you have a particular level of criminal conviction you are no longer allowed to vote so usa effect is selectively excluding a section of their population from the political system . About 1/3 of the USA population end up not being vote due to criminal conviction this is not a small amount.

Horrible part here is forced labours around the world are lot more common than one would like. China treatment of the Uyghur is not unique. I am not saying china treatment of Uyghur is right but we do need to be aware that the USA and China when it comes to forced labour is equally guilty and these are not the only countries guilty of it.

When you work out how guilty the major countries are you can understand why they wanted veto rights in the UN so they can avoid prosecution over their own wrong doing. Of course this does not help those countries populations.

[t.s.]

Maybe I missed them, but I haven't seen any racist comments in this thread. I personally have Chinese and Taiwanese coworkers, friends, and acquaintances. Don't confuse opposition to a political system with opposition to a race or ethnicity.

I didn't take us there, but when I see disinformation I'm not about to let it go unanswered. Of course, given China's competitive posture and other aspects that have been mentioned, it's utterly unsurprising that the discussion gets derailed.

Certain politicians attack China for political gain. I will grant you that. However, that's not to say their criticisms are without justification.

If China wants to lower the temperature around its activities in the international domain, then it needs to evolve its behavior from that of a 19th century power to that of a 21st century power. Specifically, that means respecting such things as:

• free & open competition
• intellectual property
• human rights
• sovereignty of other nations and their citizens

And from the last point, I also mean it's not China's place to censor critics in other nations. Again, the way to silence these voices is by changing its behavior -- not through blackmail and propaganda.

Instead of focusing on politicians, how about focusing on the facts? Maybe check some sources not biased towards China's point of view?

Looks like there's deleted or edited post(s). Something about Wumao, etc.

About opposition vs race/etchnicity, Noted. But still, it is 'anyone but China' for some guys here. And we all know, who the evil-er between USA (or the Five Eyes) vs CCP. Does anybody care if there's programme backed by those Countries? No. Just.. please be fair.

But still want to critics? Go ahead. But critize about the programme, as that is the topic here.

For the list:

• Yes, they lack in this front.
• Anyone steal from others. It's just you know about it or not. Or you're objective enough or not.
• USA incite genocide at Indonesia, estimated million lives, at war with Vietnam, estimated millions dead. Iraq, Suriah, Al Qaeda, ISIS. It's just a fraction of their wrongdoings. And you to talk about human rights by CCP? What? Uighur? It's just concentration camps, as there's quite separatist there. Yes, there's mismanagement when in practice of the concentration camps. But not ethnic cleansing like somebody said. Just get a more real data. And it pales compares with what USA and allies did and do. Oh, and for everyone that said it's ethnic cleansing, I hope their countries have some separatist too. Then, let's see what they said about _human rights_ .
• Yes, agreed. Like they sea line conflict. But don't forget about point 3, plus USA use they power to embargoes _everyone_ when they want something or cannot get something from those countries. USA and allies have no regards for people lives in different countries. If you learn USA histories, espescially what they did at other countries, it's painted in black.

I've checked from some sources too. Yes, CCP is evil too. But quite a bunch of phoronix dweller just talked like this CCP is the only evil country in this world. I thinks it's not that fair or objective. And is it that difficult to watch and learn first about this programme, and the result, before attacking CCP here and there?

Oh, and don't feel offended, as I am not talking about you. From my point of view, you're just slightly biased towards USA and allies. I'm more inline with oiaohm and in agreement with majority his post.

[wangling]

China uses Uyghur forced labour to program!

[coder]

Yep. Too much racists here.
...
they choose to attack the CCP with weak facts.

Maybe I missed them, but I haven't seen any racist comments in this thread. I personally have Chinese and Taiwanese coworkers, friends, and acquaintances. Don't confuse opposition to a political system with opposition to a race or ethnicity.

It's astounding how, rather than speak about the pluses and minuses of these China backed programme,

I didn't take us there, but when I see disinformation I'm not about to let it go unanswered.

Of course, given China's competitive posture and other aspects that have been mentioned, it's utterly unsurprising that the discussion gets derailed.

When their brainwasher 'attack' CCP for their political gain (and times again proved that when it's advantageous, those guys will cooperate with said party--CCP), these brainwashed sheep still goes on and on attacking.

Certain politicians attack China for political gain. I will grant you that. However, that's not to say their criticisms are without justification.

If China wants to lower the temperature around its activities in the international domain, then it needs to evolve its behavior from that of a 19th century power to that of a 21st century power. Specifically, that means respecting such things as:

• free & open competition
• intellectual property
• human rights
• sovereignty of other nations and their citizens

And from the last point, I also mean it's not China's place to censor critics in other nations. Again, the way to silence these voices is by changing its behavior -- not through blackmail and propaganda.

my countries have the same kind politicians,

Instead of focusing on politicians, how about focusing on the facts? Maybe check some sources not biased towards China's point of view?