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  • oiaohm
    replied
    Originally posted by coder View Post
    That's not true. In the US, the only restriction is that cameras aren't normally allowed in courtrooms, but they let reporters and portrait artists.
    This is not in fact true. That is not a full closed usa court room.
    https://openscholarship.wustl.edu/cg...=law_lawreview
    There is the walker test in the USA. Now if your case happens to pass the walker test for being full closed in the USA there will be no reporters or portrait artists or anyone else in the court room. Like it or not coder there are many cases every year in the USA held under what called "complete closures" for of closed court. Those don't have reporters those don't have portrait artists the records of those cases can be kept closed for a unlimited amount of time.

    The reality here you don't know what you are talking about.

    Originally posted by coder View Post
    That's an absurd comparison. Sealing specific court records isn't the same as gagging journalists.
    https://www.rcfp.org/journals/news-m...tempting-seal/

    Sorry you are wrong again. Journalists cannot publish want is in a USA sealed court record. How does china gagging their journalists by putting what they don't want them to say in a sealed court record and prosecuting them when ever they breach it. Please note same basic legal framework as the USA here without some abuse protections. The system that gagging journalists in china is the china legal system. Interesting enough you might call this abuse of the legal system of china. Of course a person who you know is going to commit a criminal action by release information in a sealed court record cannot get a visa to enter a country. This is the mechanics of how the China system works against journalists resulting in them being gagged.

    coder have never looked into how china in fact is gagging the journalists. The interest point is a few minor rule changes in the USA like the walker test for closing the court not being there and you would have the china system for gagging of journalists.

    The reality here coder the USA and China system are a lot closer to each other than one would think. Minor differences in the legal systems cause very major differences for the complete population. The china laws are very close to USA ones.

    Originally posted by coder View Post
    I'm not trying to litigate history. We can't change the past. We can change the present & future. What China is doing in Xinjiang is wrong and everyone is telling them so. But, instead of correcting their actions, they double down and flood the internet with misinformation like what you're parroting.
    Except this is not going to change anything really in the minorities favour. This will make it worse for the Uyghurs because you are talking about Provence not the minorities. Remember in china if you are not in your Provence that you come from you don't have rights to health and other coverage unless you have done approved migration. So USA one of we will not buy products made in Xinjiang. This is not a problem to china their army need clothing like everyone else and all the cotton produced in Xinjiang can be consumed locally. Of course due to now not having export market the china government can pay less for the cotton because they don't have as much competition.

    So now the Uyghurs wanting a more decent wage have to learn Mandarin Chinese have to leave their Provence where they end up with less rights under china laws. Yes this results in having room to live in that basically a bed you are sharing with 3 other people in a different Provence..

    Remember the Uyghurs are the dominate population in Xinjiang. Total production of Xinjiang can be consume internally by china.

    Originally posted by coder View Post
    It's not just the USA. It's virtually every free and independent country, aside from China's authoritarian buddies.
    This is playing exactly in the China government hands. For all the uniforms the china government needs that are made out of cotton they now can pay in Xinjiang less than the international cotton price because USA and virtually every free and independent country has said they would not buy product from there so not provide international competition on price. This means the Uyghurs minority in china over all will get less income and be less able to defend themselves in court.

    Originally posted by coder View Post
    This discussion already reached an impasse, back when you said you take the Chinese government's word as gospel. At that point, it was clear this was a discussion about faith (or political allegiance) rather than facts.
    Please note I am not taking the Chinese government as gospel. Coder when dealing with china you have to understand the art of war yes that classic book. Part of it talks about tricking you enemy to-do exactly what you want.

    Focus on Xinjiang Provence is wrong. Focus on china problems with minorities in general would be a important thing. Big problem in china is the fact that person who is living and working on one province but on paper is from a different province has very little in legal rights or access to medical. This is a worse problem than the Xinjiang one.

    Please note a person in the USA onTemporary worker visa has more rights than a person in different province to their registration in china. Yes being in a different province in china is basically the same as a illegal Mexican one would think. But the answer is no a illegal Mexican in the USA has more rights and medical than a person in China working in a province they don't have official registration to be in. So the worst thing you can do to a person in China is not jail them you would think it is but the worst thing you can do is force a person to work out side the Provence they are registered in because of their reduced legal rights.

    Yes Uyghurs in court in Xinjiang will have right to a interpreter and lawyer that speaks and writes the Uyghurs language but outside Xinjiang that will not be provided. This is the china system.

    Yes that video China say the one child policy is now not applied to minorities of course they skip over completely that for a time frame it was a general law in china for everyone that was enforced. There is a very simple date for the correction policy. Its the split policy on the one policy between Hong Kong and mainline china over one child policy in 1997 this is also the correction that minorities were removed in mainland china from the one child policy due to it being deemed under closer legal review as being unfair. Yes it part of the court record leading up the merge of Hong Kong back into china. This correction I see as a correction done right because it was not Provence targeted and was applied to protect the minorities from legal problem. Sad part it did not fix the core legal problem that if a minority is not in the province of that minority they better speak Mandarin Chinese in case they run into legal trouble.

    Yes some people who left china as refugees and are still stuck in the refugee systems predate the china policy correction. Of course China does not want to public say sorry we screwed up here. But it is part of the china public court record.

    You have to remember people are at times tied up in the refugee system for 40 years so their can be quite difference between what a refugee says is happening in a country and what is happening now.

    Leave a comment:


  • coder
    replied
    Originally posted by oiaohm View Post
    All countries with a legal system have what are called closed hearing/closed court proceedings. These are not allowed to be in the media.
    That's not true. In the US, the only restriction is that cameras aren't normally allowed in courtrooms, but they let reporters and portrait artists.

    Originally posted by oiaohm View Post
    USA technically is for ever that a court record can be kept closed
    Again, you either don't know what you're talking about, or are spreading reckless misinformation. In the USA, court proceedings are public records. In certain, limited cases, records can be sealed, but not simply because it's embarrassing to one party (even if that party is the government). Also, it's not an entire court proceeding -- it's just specific types of evidence.

    That's the reason a lot of non-criminal cases are settled out-of-court. Because, if somebody sues a big corporation and embarrassing evidence is submitted, there's no way for the company to keep it out of the public record.

    Originally posted by oiaohm View Post
    I can keep on going here.
    I'm sure you can.

    Originally posted by oiaohm View Post
    Even in the USA what are called seal court records journalists are generally not allowed to cover. Please note china bans are not particular to foreign journalists they are bans to all journalists.
    That's an absurd comparison. Sealing specific court records isn't the same as gagging journalists.

    Originally posted by oiaohm View Post
    If you start digging though the history of china they have done this same offence of cultural destruction hundreds of times to different cultures include their own core.
    I'm not trying to litigate history. We can't change the past. We can change the present & future. What China is doing in Xinjiang is wrong and everyone is telling them so. But, instead of correcting their actions, they double down and flood the internet with misinformation like what you're parroting.

    Originally posted by oiaohm View Post
    A proper response to the China internal problem by USA would be major disruptive. If China and the USA can get us to focus on the Uyghurs that both sides can claim they are in the right.
    It's not just the USA. It's virtually every free and independent country, aside from China's authoritarian buddies.

    This discussion already reached an impasse, back when you said you take the Chinese government's word as gospel. At that point, it was clear this was a discussion about faith (or political allegiance) rather than facts.

    Leave a comment:


  • dkasak
    replied
    Originally posted by enihcam View Post
    <ugh> That's as painful as the original article. I guess they got that guy by the balls somehow ... What's your excuse though?

    Leave a comment:


  • oiaohm
    replied
    Originally posted by coder View Post
    Sorry, I can't let this one slide. I'm no expert on the Chinese legal system, but I've heard too much about secret and closed court proceedings.
    All countries with a legal system have what are called closed hearing/closed court proceedings. These are not allowed to be in the media. This does not mean they are not entered on the public record to be released. In china case its 10 years after the trial does the full case record get released to the public record. Please note this 10 years is quite short. USA technically is for ever that a court record can be kept closed for then the UK is 100 years and Australia is 75. I can keep on going here.

    Coder you are not expert on your own legal system either. The reality is the so called secret and closed court proceeding is very common to all justice systems the big difference is the number of years it can be closed for. Yes china you see a lot of 9 year prison sentences out of the closed court this is so that before the case is on the public record a person has served their time.

    Originally posted by coder View Post
    I'm sure there's a lot more to excavate here, but are a couple data points:Also, Chinese police can apparently detain people for long periods of time, without putting them on trial or telling anyone they have the person in custody. That's hardly transparent or a model of justice.
    There is not a single Uyghurin all of those 3 cases but they are technically all minorities. Yes the lawyers being disbared in China would be disbarred in the UK/USA/Australia.... if they were on a closed case in any of those countries as well because they have gone to the media. You have made another presume that Chinese police can hold people long time frame without a trial this is part true part false. The reason why you can be held for so long compared to most countries without charge is from the time Zhou yes 1000BC this is 3 months this was to allow the suspected to be walked from edge of China to the court in the centre of china yes this need a update. Held longer than 3 months you have the problem of the China "Trial in absentia" laws. Yes your case was trial in absentia in a closed court its illegal for the police to tell you want you have been charged with when they catch up with you until the 10 years is up. In fact the police will not know what the charge is only the time frame. Again left over from the Zhou time frame with corrupt police and officials them not knowing what you were changed with made it hard for them to work out a bribe.

    Worst part about the absentia system in china is they can have you in jail and use it again and again. Yes a new case can keep the old case closed for another 10+ years.
    Its a incorrect presume about china that you can be in jail longer than 3 months(please note moon months) without being changed. But is true that you can be in jail for basically unlimited amount of time being charged every 9 years with you case being heard in absentia in a closed court so you never know what you have been charged with. Of course when you die or get released this information will come on to the public record at some point.

    China has a very old and flawed legal system.

    Originally posted by coder View Post
    So, you're saying it's inline with the Cultural Revolution? That at least makes sense.
    Yes but that is the twentieth major Cultural Revolution in china. Yes it the one we talk about because its the most recent. The first happens 1000BC in the Zhou time frame where the core of China laws come from. Please note I said major Cultural Revolutions. Like back in 2009 in Shenzhen you use to find western art works being forged in volume you go around china today and all that is gone. Ok they have non western forgeries now. There is on going minor cultural revolutions in china where the job you were doing yesterday that was a legal job is today a illegal job and you must stop doing it straight away. This really does not bode well for the 30% of the population who don't speak or write Mandarin who may not be aware of the change until been arrested and served 9 years in jail.

    Great Proletarian Cultural Revolution << We have stopped using this name for the last Major Cultural Revolution the 19 before it all have names as well. By not using the proper name the fact the other 19 happened have basically been white washed out of history so making it appear like a on off not long standing long term China Culture todo this.

    Originally posted by coder View Post
    Even if that's true (and leaks from government officials indicate at least some are aware that it's not), good intentions don't justify great harms.
    The Australian stolen generation has open documentation and you can see this is normal that a percentage enforce the policy who are no in location to change it will believe it wrong. But the ones defending will believe they are right. Problem the ones who believe they are right are the ones you have to change mind of to get rid of the problem.

    Originally posted by coder View Post
    Is that why they banned foreign journalists from covering it? Does that explain why they won't allow an independent group of international observers? No, the reason to hide what you're doing is because you know it's wrong.
    Bad news some of this is standard.
    https://www.rcfp.org/resources/first...ment-handbook/
    Even in the USA what are called seal court records journalists are generally not allowed to cover. Please note china bans are not particular to foreign journalists they are bans to all journalists. China is very strict on containment locations. Again you have another presume "independent group of international observers" drop the international they will not allow their people todo that either. We are talking a prison break in 700BC here for why a lot of these cases you cannot put anyone in. Very old system very not flexible.

    Originally posted by coder View Post
    There were many unjust processes practiced throughout history. Today, we don't excuse people for doing unjust things, simply because they're following tradition.
    Remember what I said "The road to hell is paved with good intentions." China repeated cultural destruction is based on the idea that destroying a person culture to prevent them from following their traditions is for the long term good since in their eyes those traditions contain some unjust actions. This is a very harmful tradition that the China government don't see as a tradition to be removed.

    Basically what you wrote close to the exact justification the China government uses for their actions. Good question what is unjust depending on how you define that you can very quickly find yourself doing exactly what China is.

    Originally posted by coder View Post
    Even if it's exactly the same, that doesn't make it okay. Australia wouldn't be allowed to do such a thing, today.
    I am not saying it ok. But you need to understand the mistake. Australia is still trying to reform their legal system to avoid stolen generation problems. Horrible only in the last 10 years has Australia found a few cases of the legal system in Australia still managing to perform stolen generation in areas instead of providing aid. Younger country legally but still having legal system hell. Yes being a smaller population means the number of people effected by these legal mistakes is less but they still happen.

    Yes this is Australia a country that accept from the top doing culture destruction is wrong and is attempting to correct the laws. China the top thinks what they are doing is right at that point is o boy we are in trouble because they are not going to fix the laws instead will double down and defend the laws worse push the legal system more in the direction of causing culture destruction.

    Originally posted by coder View Post
    It's nothing like that. If you're searching for a historical analogy, might I suggest the work camps of the Khmer Rouge or Stalin's Gulags?
    No they are not the same thing as what china does. The stolen generation camps in Australia were it attempted forceful education are the same thing. The Khmer Rouge and Gulags objective was out death. Not cultural destruction while leaving majority live like that exactly what the stolen generation camps and the china current camps are attempt todo.

    Please note the history of china doing this even include building the great wall where people were taken from the south of china and made work in the north of china on the wall in the process their prior culture was destroyed back then. If you start digging though the history of china they have done this same offence of cultural destruction hundreds of times to different cultures include their own core. Yes building of the great wall of china was one of the first documented cases of setting up reeducation camps of china.

    China problems with minorities is not new. These problems are insanely old and horrible the system to-do them are coded into China very old legal system. China need major legal reform. Also parties like Uyghurs are less than 1 percent of problem. If you were serous about blocking out China production from minorities their legal system is harming you need to block around 50% of china production as that is in fact production coming from people who don't speak mandarin who need minority support legal to protect their rights yes we see the lawyers who represent minorities in china getting disbarred. Please note they are less than 30% of the china population but they are quite productive and quite commonly under paid to basically not paid.

    A proper response to the China internal problem by USA would be major disruptive. If China and the USA can get us to focus on the Uyghurs that both sides can claim they are in the right. USA gets to claim they are doing something but the thing they are effectively doing to china national income is effectively pointless because Uyghurs mostly don't work in major factories. China gets to claim its all trumped up garbage because they don't selectively target the Uyghurs this is in fact true statement they instead target minorities general with generic laws and generic legal system that just happen to include Uyghurs. The wrong claim means no force for change at all.

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  • coder
    replied
    I always wondered what country you were from...

    Originally posted by oiaohm View Post
    That the funny part. When it comes to China with their laws and count system in that area they are in fact highly transparent. Has been this way in China since 1000 years BC.
    Sorry, I can't let this one slide. I'm no expert on the Chinese legal system, but I've heard too much about secret and closed court proceedings. I'm sure there's a lot more to excavate here, but are a couple data points:Also, Chinese police can apparently detain people for long periods of time, without putting them on trial or telling anyone they have the person in custody. That's hardly transparent or a model of justice.
    Originally posted by oiaohm View Post
    Because what china is doing is documented by China Government.
    So, the real answer is that you believe what they tell you, in spite of all evidence to the contrary.

    Originally posted by oiaohm View Post
    The dominate language of the Uyghurs ...
    This is a false narrative, and I trust you know that (even if you'll never admit it).

    Originally posted by oiaohm View Post
    Its the remoteness in china why we are only seeing china version of mandatory schooling out in that area being built in a big way now. Other language groups near the capital had their unique schooling taken out of over 100 years go. This a long term process that starts before China had Communism. China logic for doing it has not changed the complete time.

    This is another problem with the reporting the media focus on the Uyghurs and don't see if any other groups have been nuked in china history. Remember every time china government has done this they believe they are treating everyone equally and fairly.
    So, you're saying it's inline with the Cultural Revolution? That at least makes sense.

    Originally posted by oiaohm View Post
    coder the saying " The road to hell is paved with good intentions." is so true here every party in the China mess with the Uyghurs and other cultures believes in china is they have very good intentions for what they are doing.
    Even if that's true (and leaks from government officials indicate at least some are aware that it's not), good intentions don't justify great harms.

    Originally posted by oiaohm View Post
    This also explains why china when the claims are brought to them in incorrect form just respond with we don't do that.
    Is that why they banned foreign journalists from covering it? Does that explain why they won't allow an independent group of international observers? No, the reason to hide what you're doing is because you know it's wrong.

    Originally posted by oiaohm View Post
    Lot of what china is doing today is following their old historic processes
    There were many unjust processes practiced throughout history. Today, we don't excuse people for doing unjust things, simply because they're following tradition.

    Originally posted by oiaohm View Post
    The reality in my mind is china is repeating the same mistake as what Australia did that created the stolen generation in the native Australian population.
    Even if it's exactly the same, that doesn't make it okay. Australia wouldn't be allowed to do such a thing, today.

    Originally posted by oiaohm View Post
    Also China is repeating the same mistake the USA has done in their prison systems as well. There is example after example of the same class of screw up.
    It's nothing like that. If you're searching for a historical analogy, might I suggest the work camps of the Khmer Rouge or Stalin's Gulags?

    Leave a comment:


  • oiaohm
    replied
    Originally posted by misGnomer View Post
    Huh.

    "... documented"
    "... in fact"
    "The reality here..."

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Uyghur_language

    From the auspicious start of Uighur language not even existing it then descends into genocide-denialism-through-truancy (!) before topping off with generous historical touches of whataboutism.
    Good for pointing that mistake. The dominate language of the Uyghurs is Arabic not Mandarin. should have been The dominate language of the Uyghurs is Perso-Arabic script not "Chinese characters"

    Do note the signboards shown on the wikipage in Xinjiang you have Uyghurs Arabic at the time that most of the people in that area read with Mandarin under it and other photos of the area you will see building with pure Uyghurs Arabic no Mandarin

    Originally posted by misGnomer View Post
    Some hardware sites attract these PRC-feller types because these days they tend to be plugging predominantly PRC-made electronics by PRC companies. Seems Phoronix has some pulling power as well.
    This is hand waving I am not a PRC supporting person. The really "genocide-denialism-through-truancy" no this is wrong. If you look at the Australian stolen generation you can perform genocide with the forceful application of truancy laws.

    The documentation of china tells us what kind of genocide mechanics they are using. The list:
    1) Forced education with no consideration if this is going to destroy culture.
    2) Legal system with no consideration for other languages.
    3) This linked to the legal system. A mind set of what works for the "majority is good for everyone". This means minorities are screwed.

    That legal system problem of china includes laws with harsh punishments not being rewritten into other languages so putting people using those languages at a high risk of getting the worst outcomes. Like having the Uyghurs and others like them not getting the one child policy clearly explained and what the legal effects of not following those laws were this is the cause of the force abortions because the Uyghurs and others had not done the paper they should have by the law but they also did not know they should have because those requirement were never written in the language they understood.

    How as the white Australia policy in history enforced you wanted to enter country you had to be able to read X language selected by you interviewer and when you could not you would be allowed to enter country. China court and legal system everything is done in Mandarin Chinese it does matter that 30 percent of the population of china cannot speak or write it. Please note the Uyghurs don't make up the complete 30% they are one groups Uyghurs are only 0.31% of the population of china. There are 55 documented minorities in china that don't speak or write Mandarin Chinese but use their own language surprise the Uyghurs is one of the smaller ones .

    By not understand what China problem is you get the USA putting restrictions on times made in Xinjiang this does not fix the problem. Why because labour works can work in other areas of china with basically no rights. Yes its important to remember in china if you are not working in the province you legally own to you have very restricted rights. So Uyghurs being forced to work outside Xinjiang have less legal rights than those that can work in Xinjiang. The other 29%+ who are badly effected in china the restrictions over the Uyghurs USA does will do nothing to help them.

    Welcome to the game of slide of hand. USA and other focus on the Uyghurs this effects less than 1 percent of china production so the other 29%+ of production done by minorities that have suffering the same problems as the Uyghurs gets ignored.

    misGnomer when dealing with a country performing genocide you need to understand what they hell the mechanics of there genocide system is. Otherwise you fall straight into the following https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_sq...ets_the_grease result in not responding correctly.

    Uyghurs are the loudest squeaky wheel with china operational problems. But they are a very small wheel majority of the adversely effected don't get media coverage. Chine system is universal minority harmful and the response focused on the Uyghurs miss the system fault to a point that the disruption to trade is that low that china can in fact ignore it. Horrible question did the China government/USA government come to agreement that over minority handling that Uyghurs would be the focused group so that the others inside China get to be ignored.

    Please note there major classes of genocide.
    1) genocide performed by people knowing they are doing the wrong thing. These are the ones commonly hidden require a lot of work to find out how and why it happening.
    2) genocide perform by people believing they are doing the right thing. These are not hidden in their documentation and so on. Yes sometimes you have to read without bias to see the mechanical problem in laws and culture.

    The scary part here is China in their own public documentation is not attempting to hide what they are doing. This means china government believe what they are doing is right. Yet for some reason international media cannot find that China has a generic minorities genocide problem. Maybe because lot of the minorities in china they don't speak english at all so don't have a good person to interview and put out as a poster for the problem. Uyghurs due to their schools do speak english and out of the minorities of china they are biggest speakers of English so they squeak louder.

    Its not that the USA has not had its own genocide problems either. Genocide happens way more often than we like. The most common forms of Genocide are the ones where people believe they are doing the right things.

    Leave a comment:


  • misGnomer
    replied
    Huh.

    "... documented"
    "... in fact"
    "The reality here..."


    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Uyghur_language

    From the auspicious start of Uighur language not even existing it then descends into genocide-denialism-through-truancy (!) before topping off with generous historical touches of whataboutism.


    The dominate language of the Uyghurs is Arabic not Mandarin. This is documented by everyone country that has accepted Uyghurs as refugees. Gets worst the dominate second language of Uyghurs is english with less than 1 in 1000 in fact being able to speak Mandarin and that is in the refugee numbers. So this is not depending on China to state what the problem is. The reality here the Uyghurs would speak Mandarin if they had been attending china government provided public education but they have not been. In China government eyes they have truancy problem on a insane scale so they are providing very restrictive boarding schools

    Some hardware sites attract these PRC-feller types because these days they tend to be plugging predominantly PRC-made electronics by PRC companies. Seems Phoronix has some pulling power as well.

    Leave a comment:


  • oiaohm
    replied
    Originally posted by coder View Post
    As if you would know? China is hardly the model of a transparent government, much less when it comes to matters like these.
    That the funny part. When it comes to China with their laws and count system in that area they are in fact highly transparent. Has been this way in China since 1000 years BC.

    Originally posted by coder View Post
    That's putting it mildly, from what I've heard.

    For one thing: https://www.nytimes.com/2015/07/23/w...s-lawyers.html

    But this is also off-topic and not an area I've followed very closely.
    This is the same problem. Human rights laywers is talking about a groups getting special treatments at times so they end up with fair treatment. This is China big problem.

    Originally posted by coder View Post
    Again, how would you know? Xinjiang is fairly remote, even within China.
    Because what china is doing is documented by China Government.

    Originally posted by coder View Post
    Your entire story about how the Uyghurs don't speak Mandarin and therefore somehow fall afoul of the Chinese legal system falls flat, when you consider that the mass internment of their population is a very recent development (within just the past few years). Plenty of satellite images have been published, showing the build-out of secure facilities to hold them.
    The dominate language of the Uyghurs is Arabic not Mandarin. This is documented by everyone country that has accepted Uyghurs as refugees. Gets worst the dominate second language of Uyghurs is english with less than 1 in 1000 in fact being able to speak Mandarin and that is in the refugee numbers. So this is not depending on China to state what the problem is. The reality here the Uyghurs would speak Mandarin if they had been attending china government provided public education but they have not been. In China government eyes they have truancy problem on a insane scale so they are providing very restrictive boarding schools so people will attend china provided public education. Of course the Uyghurs view this treatment cultural destruction because they children are not getting to attend islamic schools. The dominance of Arabic and English is explained by the top to text books used in those islamic schools Qurʾān and the english christian bibles reality is those schools don't use Mandarin textbooks for majority of the schooling. Please note the language used in Uyghurs islamic schools have been uniform between the populations inside china and the major history populations outside china of course no Mandarin. Please note the major populations out side china are not huge we are talking sub 100000 per country along what was the history silk road note these populations started before Communism and some started because of early mandatory public education requirements in china(yes before Communism) that did push the Uyghurs more rural in china.

    Please do note its is offence in china as a china citizen not to attend the public provided education. So reality in China government eyes all the all the Uyghurs who cannot speak Mandarin are criminals/possible terrorist/possible rebels. Uyghurs point of view they are obeying their culture speaking/writing Arabic and are maintaining their culture sending their children to Islamic schools instead of the public provided ones.

    China Government truly believes what they are doing is to fix the problem. Get all the population to know Mandarin so they can read and obey the countries laws without needing any special treatment that china goal.

    coder this is a culture class on a insane scale. With both sides thinking they are doing the right thing. When in reality most likely is both sides are wrong and the correct answer should be somewhere in the middle like Islamic schools in china making Mandarin a mandatory second language.

    Having satelite images of secure facilities being made does not explain the problem behind it. Reading the china court record, china laws and looking the languages Uyghurs refugees could in fact speak and write and you cross reference all that the story is simple. Yes a person guilty of truancy in china does not get a criminal record but can be legal contained during their education to make sure they get it. When you have a huge population of people truancy who are going to be in mandated education by their will you are going need you are going to need some huge secure facilities. Again this is china not applying Uyghurs target laws but general laws of china possible doing long harm to culture of the Uyghurs. As china has got richer they have had the money to spend to start enforcing anti-truancy in more and more rural areas of china.

    Originally posted by coder View Post
    Xinjiang is fairly remote, even within China
    The mandatory education stuff of China has been working out from the highly populated areas for many decades. Its the remoteness in china why we are only seeing china version of mandatory schooling out in that area being built in a big way now. Other language groups near the capital had their unique schooling taken out of over 100 years go. This a long term process that starts before China had Communism. China logic for doing it has not changed the complete time.

    This is another problem with the reporting the media focus on the Uyghurs and don't see if any other groups have been nuked in china history. Remember every time china government has done this they believe they are treating everyone equally and fairly.

    coder the saying " The road to hell is paved with good intentions." is so true here every party in the China mess with the Uyghurs and other cultures believes in china is they have very good intentions for what they are doing. The process has been going on for at least 100 years if not longer. With modern technology we can see that its happening now the early time frame we only have the china courts and law records for what happened and those documents don't hide it. The modern-day china court record documents don't attempt to hide it either because they don't believe they are doing the wrong thing.

    This is the problem its really simple to attempt to correct the problem in china by saying that china doing the wrong thing but that not going work. You need to understand why china government and legal system believes it doing the right thing and be able to create argument to be able counter what they are doing. This also explains why china when the claims are brought to them in incorrect form just respond with we don't do that. Like call the china work to earn good behaviour system that is historic "forced labour" is always just going to get the response of denial we are not doing that. When I say historic I mean the first appearance in the china legal record for working for good behaviour to get out sooner is 800BC china was doing this well before USA existed as a country. Lot of what china is doing today is following their old historic processes this does include forced education of those who will not attend school. Just china has not had the resources to enforce all their generic laws this has changed with china wealth.

    Please note don't take this as me saying what China is doing is right to Uyghurs. The reality in my mind is china is repeating the same mistake as what Australia did that created the stolen generation in the native Australian population. Of course again the people who did the stolen generation in Australia believed they were doing it for the right reasons. Yes that was another case of building secure facilities to contain them to attempt educated them. Also China is repeating the same mistake the USA has done in their prison systems as well. There is example after example of the same class of screw up. This is a form of screw up us as humans have the habit of repeating.
    Last edited by oiaohm; 14 July 2021, 11:42 PM.

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  • enihcam
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  • Jabberwocky
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    Disclaimer: Politics needs to stay out of open source, but I make exception for crimes against humanity (specifically genocide related) and global pandemics.

    China said the camps doesn't exist. After enough proof China said it's just re-education camps for Uyghurs. China restricted/denied independent investigation. International Criminal Court and United Nations does not have jurisdiction. China's methods persuading witnesses are similar to that of North Korea or Scientology, they influence or punish family/friends of the witnesses and use them to either discredit the witness' story or to punish the friends/family to scare others from fleeing the country. If it's not mass surveillance then China relies on people reporting each other. This is not new behaviour nor is this something unique to China, what is unique is the scale of it. Despite these efforts to cover-up there's still amount of evidence that's building up.

    At this stage it seems like a depraved joke to compare the evidence we have to random biased vlogers that broadcast from inside of China. It's not funny but I call it a joke due to how pathetic these vloger cover-up attempts are. On the one side you have journalists from many countries (not just USA or UK) who are interviewing eyewitnesses and on the other side you have random vlogers who have at the very least a conflict of interest not to mention extreme bias in every video that I have seen.

    Originally posted by enihcam View Post
    1. This person is a known China shill. Some of his content includes: "The World can’t compete with China’s Infrastructure", "The World is Hiding China’s Success", "The Chinese Government is Doing a Great Job", "The World Needs to Learn from China", and finally "Is this not a utopia? Is this not the way the world should be? People say ‘communism is bad’ Well maybe it’s not that bad. Take a look at China for example. Is it that bad? This is communism." There are many claims that foreigners are getting paid by China to promote to the west. https://archive.today/2021.07.04-092...?region=global If only the CCP could just delete content like this off the global internet like they do back home.

    2. Even if he wasn't a shill it sounds like the target audience of this video are 5 year old children. I can ignore idiotic way that he attempts to make things sounds more dramatically (it's probably for the views), but the points that he tries to make: Detention camp has a garden, so it's not a detention camp. Why are you looking at satellite images of China, why aren't you looking at satellite images of your own country... like are you actually serious? I can't believe he came up with all of that topics by himself. He sounds like a complete idiot willing to do anything to get paid.

    3. Why is he allowed to be in China and publish to YouTube from within China. Isn't it against the law? Why is he getting special privileges? Both you and him are claiming that the BBC is spreading fake news but they and other journalists are not allowed in China. That seems very similar to that of North Korea's recipe for foreign media.

    As per my previous references there are many like this person who are just making random vlogging videos defending China in "why are you looking at China? look at XYZ" or "look we are in Xinjiang and there's no genocide here, also it is the most beautiful place that you will ever see" broken rhetoric. On the other side you have professional people interviewing eyewitnesses who have testified against gross human rights violations. It's not just the BBC and USA media that is reporting on this...







    If China had nothing to hide why pay foreign companies for adverts that the Chinese government made themselves? This behaviour makes them extremely suspicious: https://archive.today/2021.04.04-011...ng-11617366096

    Why does China feel the need to spend so much resources on fake news? https://archive.today/2021.04.16-154...0210408-p57hl1

    The unusual cruelty in using someone’s parent, sibling, or friend as a mouthpiece for the state, to threaten and silence dissidents, must be condemned by international organisations, governments, and human rights organisations. These videos can be used to discredit the person alleging human rights abuses, the indirect equivalent of intimidating a witness -- https://archive.today/2021.03.03-072...hur-advocates/

    The only way that the world would have gotten a smoking gun (the desired proof) very quickly would have been through UN and or ICC investigations, but China said it was an internal matter and denied entry. Why?

    The first-hand testimonies by Chinese citizens is enough to warrant an independent investigation.

    I don't want to see more people get hurt by these extremely bad and unfortunate mistakes. We might see more trade sanctions and possibly complete boycott of the Olympics. https://archive.today/2021.07.09-153...-rights-abuses . This is not good direction as it will cause a lot more people to get hurt doesn't matter which "side" you are on. The CCP is busy digging China's grave by not allowing UN/ICC to investigate these matters.

    The bits and parts of information that comes out of China all send the same message and the wrongdoings are so extreme that we want take time to properly prove to say without a doubt that China is committing full scale cultural genocide on Uyghurs before proper actions will be taken, but these shills (below) are just deplorable ignoring the testaments of those that escaped China.



    This week we had great unrest in states/provinces in South Africa directly related to the government/politics. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xlaf99d-qNI The previous president was a tyrant that lived above the law. He (Jacob Zuma) ran the country into the ground and was was jailed and his supporters got angry. Politicians are trying to play race cards, but the majority of people are not having it. In the past few years South Korea's Candlelight Struggle was the best example of protesting yet I would much rather see people protest badly than being completely controlled/silenced by their government. Further because foreign journalists are allowed to come into the country and criticize the government by reporting the truth... even the corporate news is getting the story right (which is complicated and many volggers are getting it wrong) https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_Pgbf-cfxHM . To me it is logical to assume that the global pandemic will only fuel irrational behaviour and covid19 is not something that is going away soon. I'm not even a big fan of Islam however regardless of my philosophy I don't want ANY ONE to get tortured! Especially not in such a way that the evidence describes! I don't want the Uyghurs to be a pawn in geopolitics, these are actual people's lives and it's not something that happened decades or centuries ago. It happened now.

    At some stage the whole truth will come out... Governments are always looking for weaknesses to punish other countries but these days even average citizens around the world are also loosing their patience with the CCP's lies and deceit. Many people like to act without thinking (long enough) https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=56t33QQIzvM and others are completely impulsive. China can avoid speculation by speaking the truth and letting UN/ICC investigate these "internal matters". The people have a responsibility to keep their government in check and that is valid all over the world. It's just sad that China is so far behind, they still can't acknowledge Tiananmen Square Massacre and that happened 32 years ago!

    Logos > Pathos

    PS: Can't wait for oiaohm to come and make this debate about irrelevant things like USA or BBC.

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