Originally posted by Weasel
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SDL2 Reverts Its Wayland Preference - Goes Back To X11 Default
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Originally posted by birdie View PostNothing in Fedora 35 uses libwlroots.so.whatever, OK?
Provides: libwlroots.so.9 / wlroots / wlroots(x86-64)
Required By: cage / hikari / labwc / sway / wayfire / wlroots-devel
Originally posted by birdie View PostTo fuck with wlroots, OK?
...
Oh, wait, none of them use wlroots.
Originally posted by birdie View PostI don't fucking care about the "library" which no one uses and which is not a library. Nothing in Fedora 35 uses libwlroots.so.whatever, OK?
Library is something which is dynamically loaded and is shared between applications. This is not how wlroots was designed - it's meant to be built-in, so essentially it's not a library it's a fucking dump of source code you're free to include.
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Originally posted by jacob View Post
Fascinating logic. The Linux XFS driver doesn't work on Windows. Could people stop pushing Windows when it's clearly not ready?
Originally posted by Myownfriend View Post
What is this supposed to mean? Literally none of the reasons stated for this reversion have anything to do with the protocol. They literally said that the Wayland support in SDL is stable but they're reverting because of issues with third party software and they were first to point out Nvidia drivers.
The reason that OBS doesn't work properly on Wayland on Nvidia hardware is because Nvidia drivers don't support EGL_NATIVE_RENDERABLE. The reason why Gnome night light doesn't work on Nvidia hardware in Wayland is because the driver doesn't support GAMMA_LUT and according to Nvidia it's part of the reason why Gamescope has issues running on Nvidia hardware either.
The only exception for this are mathematically proven protocols for areas such as networking/leader election (i.e. RAFT consensus algorithm) but thats nothing close to what Wayland does.
The point still remains though, Wayland should not be changed to default unless the protocol and the ecosystem around it area ready which it clearly is not.
Also not sure why there is so much pushback on this, its nothing controversial.Last edited by mdedetrich; 20 April 2022, 07:29 AM.
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Originally posted by birdie View PostI can use almost any WM under any DE under Xorg.
XFWM4 (from XFCE) running KDE? No problems.
KWin running XFCE? No problems.
Mutter running KDE? No problems.
Tried to run KDE with Mutter some time ago. It's been accident I haven't noticed that I switched this and no - it doesn't work at all.
But there are more serious issues with all WMs:
- Multidisplay support on Mutter in X11 is broken since forever. The only X11 Windows Manager where it kind of works for me is KWin, but there are some issues when you connect and disconnect displays - sometimes you need to turn display off and on with xrandr. It works perfectly fine on Mutter and KWin Wayland display servers though.
- The situation is even funnier with fractional scalling. It doesn't work in X11 at all. You can use xrandr for this and then it sometimes work, but with many issues and performance is rather bad. On the other hand it works flawlessly with KWin and Mutter compositors.
None of them implement the display protocol, none of them reimplement screen settings, keyboard/mouse, locale, systray, drag and drop, screen sharing and casting, and a metric ton of features the Xorg server provides out of the box.
I've got one fucking configuration for all Xorg/X11 DEs.
Each fucking compositor under Wayland has its own configuration file and format.
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Originally posted by mdedetrich View Post
he core problem is the very fact that Wayland was released as a protocol with no real implementation backing it. Do note the process of doing this is also historically rare and not that successful. Typically speaking an interface/protocol is derived from a known well working implementation and not the other way around (because a protocol with no real implementation is just pure theory).
Fun fact: "The X11 protocol was designed with little idea of how it would be implemented and was fully specified before the implementation began."
https://www.google.com/url?q=https:/...w2zep7lhFMYq-X
That's on page 3 though the full quote is:
"The X11 protocol was designed with little idea of how it would be implemented and was fully specified before the implementation began. It is of course true, however, that if we did not un- derstand how to implement something in a reasonable amount of time and effort (since timeli- ness was critical) we did not add it to the design; for example, non-rectangular windows have been added as an extension since the original release. We did not understand at the time how easy they would be to implement, and therefore explicitly rejected them during the design meet- ing. The specification was changed during alpha and beta test as we learned from the imple- mentation; often errors in the specification or design flaws were uncovered as the implementa- tion proceeded. We are very skeptical of systems that have never been implemented before widespread adoption; similarly, systems that have not been carefully specified before imple- mentation begins are also suspect."
Last edited by Myownfriend; 20 April 2022, 12:06 PM.
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Originally posted by WeaselImagine blaming people for ignoring you and calling them names when you're the quote war asshat who quotes every single word and nobody wants to bother with.
Your problem.
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Oh wait... forgot about one thing.
Originally posted by birdie View PostWhere's KWin using wlroots?
https://www.phoronix.com/scan.php?pa...OOTS-Continues
Last edited by tildearrow; 20 April 2022, 06:56 PM.
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Originally posted by birdie View PostThis is a fucking lie. Wayland is held back by its asinine design decisions and asinine implementations.
Unfortunately, not correct in the details though. Today is not a new day where everything just started right now in this instant. All of the things that bother you about Wayland could have been resolved four or more years ago had Nvidia not tried to strong-arm the Wayland devs with EGLStreams. This problem is overwhelmingly a timeline problem. SDL devs can't code for a Nvidia thing that isn't supported in conjuction with a Wayland thing that isn't supported because of the Nvidia dependency. This is just simple coding problems, all developers run into dependency woes at some point or another right?
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In the end, the brave David-esque Mesa developers stared down Goliath Huang and ultimately were triumphant. Nvidia folded and now is on with GBM but only kind of supports GBM. It would be myopic to try to claim that Nvidia having a war with the developers to insist on EGLStreams as their own personal preference when they don't even contribute on the open source side anyways, that that's not going to have some sort of repercussions. It does have repercussions.
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I'm only kidding with you about the David and Goliath thing though. :-) In all seriousness, you should note that in both the 2016 article as well as the 2021 article, it is widely acknowledged that the GBM/EGLStreams fight was (and is) detrimental on the Wayland front.
Originally posted by birdie View PostYeah, he strikes straight into the brains of Linux users who suddenly lose dozens of IQ points when they see the word NVIDIA.
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