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SDL2 Reverts Its Wayland Preference - Goes Back To X11 Default

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  • #71
    Originally posted by birdie View Post
    On my Fedora Linux I've had a single Xorg server for over two decades now (I started with RedHat 5.2 - no that wasn't RHEL, it was RedHat). You could stop shoving the examples from the long past or other platforms, OK?
    I don't care how long you've been running whatever server. I mentioned those things because you're acting like X11 has always been this one server world, that the protocol facilitates that, and that the Wayland protocol somehow dictates that there be a bunch of different compositors. You've repeated that sentiment many, many times so you clearly have to be told things many, many times.

    Originally posted by birdie View Post
    ...servers/compositors (which is an asinine idea BTW to combine them because it means everything becomes a lot more prone to crashes
    Again, you don't actually know that. You don't have the proper knowledge to assess that. You just have feelings.

    In your expert opinion, why should they be separate?

    Originally posted by birdie View Post
    The fact remains: Wayland has dozens of servers/compositors and there's zero work to unify anything - don't BS me please.
    What needs to be unified?

    Originally posted by birdie View Post
    You cannot use KWin with Gnome, you cannot use Mutter with KDE. Under Xorg/X11 both are perfectly possible.
    Those can't both be true. They both still have X11 backends that run atop. Either you can actually mix and match them or X11 and Xorg aren't the magic fairy dust for interoperability that you think they are. It's one or the other.

    As I've mentioned before XFCE can run atop Mutter and it gains the ability to run a Wayland session because of it. Raspberry Pi OS has been doing that for the last few months.

    Originally posted by birdie View Post
    Wayland has nice ideas behind it
    This is a first for you. What ideas do you like?

    Originally posted by birdie View Post
    but overall the way it's implemented now it's worse than Xorg.
    How so? I'd love the deets.

    Originally posted by birdie View Post
    X11/Xorg gives me more freedom and it's more modularized than Wayland/Whatever compositor you wanna throw in.
    It works worse though. You're gaining the ability to use Xorg with different WMs and compositors, but it works worse. A Wayland compositor has far less latency without introducing tearing and it offers the ability to have multi-monitor setups with mixed DPIs and refresh rates. You can get something that looks like mixed DPIs on X11 but it looks worse, has far worse performance, and uses more VRAM.

    On my Pi 400 I run Ubuntu 22.04 using Gnome 42 hooked up to a 1440p monitor. Under an Xorg session I can't move a window around or enter overview at full frame rate. it dips to something close to 30 fps. I determined this by just filming my screen at 60 fps while moving a window. The window seemed to update roughly every two frames. I could fix this by overclocking the GPU though. I got full frame rates at stock clocks in a Wayland session, though.

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    • #72
      Originally posted by birdie View Post
      The absolute worst thing about Wayland is that it implies and necessitates that each DE must write their own server/compositor implementing a metric ton of features.
      Point us to the part of the protocol that says this.

      Originally posted by birdie View Post
      This is nightmare. Whoever designed/envisaged this really hates people and Linux users in general.
      Is the surprise that you're actually Kristian Høgsberg? Because you described yourself but Wayland was started by Kristian Høgsberg on his free time when he was with Redhat and the first releases came out when he was with Intel.

      Originally posted by birdie View Post
      That's why: IceWM wayland support = WONTFIX
      That's why: XFCE - zero support and near zero work towards supporting it.
      XFCE can run a Wayland session when it's run on top of Mutter. I told you this multiple times over the course of months and Raspberry Pi OS does it.

      https://www.raspberrypi.com/news/ras...te-april-2022/

      Originally posted by birdie View Post
      That's why: we only have kinda-OK'ish mutter/gnome and buggy/incomplete kde/kwin. And that's it.
      How is Gnome's Wayland session just "kinda-OK'ish"? It runs really smoothly and a lot of the remaining issues are because you and I use Nvidia GPUs.

      Originally posted by birdie View Post
      And of course it's all BECAUSE OF NVIDIA.
      Hey I just said that... and showed it in previous post that you conveniently ignored lol

      Originally posted by birdie View Post
      People who say that are either complete idiots, trolls or haters - or all of it at the same time.
      Or, get this, you're being defensive as an Nvidia fanboy. That's why when someone says this you sound like a 14 year old on XBox Live lol
      Last edited by Myownfriend; 20 April 2022, 03:47 AM.

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      • #73
        Originally posted by Myownfriend View Post
        How is Gnome's Wayland session just "kinda-OK'ish"? It runs really smoothly and a lot of the remaining issues are because you and I use Nvidia GPUs.
        1. Nothing in the protocol specifies it it's just the way it is. I don't fucking care if wayland compositors can be shared between DEs, this does not work and this is not supported by KWin/Mutter/Weston/whatever.
        2. I don't fucking care about Raspberry Pi, I need XFCE under Wayland on my desktop PC. We are here discussing Linux for the PC, so let's fucking stick to it or otherwise you'll tell me how beautiful Android is.
        3. People who run Gnome under Wayland under Jesus endorsed AMD and Intel GPUs have horrible bugs. Too lazy to find them now. If you really want me, I'll go and find them. Something about lags and refresh rates at the very least.
        4. I don't fucking care what you said about NVIDIA, Wayland has issues in itself. Stop subverting the topic for fuck's sake.
        5. Ad hominem, great.

        Overall: 0 arguments for Wayland from you. 0 arguments against NVIDIA from you.

        Have fun in your "Wayland is perfect but NVIDIA!" bubble.

        Actually I promised myself a year or two ago to ignore your posts completely. I've again made a mistake and forgotten about my promise. Sorry, and goodbye.

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        • #74
          Originally posted by Vermilion View Post
          Citation needed.
          AFAIK that's just your understanding since wlroots is maintained by one of the core developers working in Wayland.


          Are you deliberately omitting wlroots? It's the closest to what you've been asking so far. A unified library that many Wayland compositors are built on.
          To fuck with wlroots, OK?

          Where's XFWM using wlroots?
          Where's IceWM using wlroots?
          Where's Mutter using wlroots?
          Where's KWin using wlroots?

          Oh, wait, none of them use wlroots. I don't fucking care about the "library" which no one uses and which is not a library. Nothing in Fedora 35 uses libwlroots.so.whatever, OK?

          Library is something which is dynamically loaded and is shared between applications. This is not how wlroots was designed - it's meant to be built-in, so essentially it's not a library it's a fucking dump of source code you're free to include. We've had this conversation a dozen times already and you continue to give me these asinine "arguments" for Wayland: "Ma, 25 years ago we have 25 servers for X11! Ma, Wayland compositors can be shared between different DEs (in reality it's a fucking lie). But, Ma, the wlroots library!"

          It's crap. Period. I'm fucking out.

          Comment


          • #75
            Originally posted by -MacNuke- View Post

            Yeah just like every Xorg WM implements their own compositor on Xorg... mutter, kwin, xfce... everyone has their own compositor on Xorg too. Stop spreading fud
            The fuck you're talking about? Are you even in the topic?

            I can use almost any WM under any DE under Xorg.

            XFWM4 (from XFCE) running KDE? No problems.
            KWin running XFCE? No problems.
            Mutter running KDE? No problems.

            None of them implement the display protocol, none of them reimplement screen settings, keyboard/mouse, locale, systray, drag and drop, screen sharing and casting, and a metric ton of features the Xorg server provides out of the box.

            I've got one fucking configuration for all Xorg/X11 DEs.

            Each fucking compositor under Wayland has its own configuration file and format.

            Anyways, Wayland lovers are so myopic I'm exhausted and out. Won't chime in in a single Wayland related topic any time soon.

            Comment


            • #76
              Originally posted by ezst036 View Post

              Sigh.

              The very first thing that was named. Nvidia still holding back Wayland adoption.

              Could we get some flooding of Nvidia's bug report forum so they finally do something? It's so annoying. It's really so annoying.
              To the contrary, let's ignore them completely. On Windows or MacOS they follow the official APIs but on Linux they think the developers and the user base owes something to them, not the other way around. They don't want the Linux market? Fine, their loss. We don't need them.

              Comment


              • #77
                Originally posted by birdie View Post

                3. People who run Gnome under Wayland under Jesus endorsed AMD and Intel GPUs have horrible bugs. Too lazy to find them now. If you really want me, I'll go and find them. Something about lags and refresh rates at the very least.
                What are you talking about? I'm using wayland on multiple systems iGPU, AMD, Nvidia. at work 2xFHD (90° turned), 1xQHD, 1xUHD (scaling 200%) guess what it works ...since 2 years. on PopOS 20.04 and now 21.10 intel Igpu and luckily since a few month with nvidia 510.

                I'm gaming since Ubuntu 19.04 with wayland exclusively on my jesus sent Navi 10. since 20.04 no wayland issue anymore.

                My laptop just haswell iGPU is using wayland since <18.04 around 2018 there where some firefox issue - it works fine since around 2019.....

                I really don't know how much examples of daily usage and different systems I have to provide. Yes, statisticially there will be people with issues as there are with X11.
                And my anecdotal experience is not representative.
                But then I have to raise the question what am I doing right that my different systems with even niche configurations are providing me a flawless wayland experience of thousands of hours accumulated over daily usage if I exclude Nvidia ?!?
                Last edited by CochainComplex; 20 April 2022, 05:05 AM.

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                • #78
                  Originally posted by mdedetrich View Post
                  The only problem here is people pushing Wayland when its clearly not ready and in reality NVidia drivers is a tiny part of that problem.
                  Fascinating logic. The Linux XFS driver doesn't work on Windows. Could people stop pushing Windows when it's clearly not ready?

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                  • #79
                    Originally posted by birdie View Post
                    Won't chime in in a single Wayland related topic any time soon.
                    Bet you will, one page later or in the next article.
                    I guess it was really necessary for you to say goodbye three times in a row.

                    Comment


                    • #80
                      Originally posted by birdie View Post
                      1. Nothing in the protocol specifies it it's just the way it is.
                      ...

                      Originally posted by birdie View Post
                      I don't fucking care if wayland compositors can be shared between DEs, this does not work and this is not supported by KWin/Mutter/Weston/whatever.
                      Yes it is. Kwin and Mutter have both been shown to work with other DEs. This first sentence literally contradicts the second. You did this in your last post, too, when you said that Gnome could run on top of Kwin and Plasma could run on top of Mutter if they supported Xorg but they both do support Xorg. Make up your fucking mind.

                      Originally posted by birdie View Post
                      2. I don't fucking care about Raspberry Pi, I need XFCE under Wayland on my desktop PC. We are here discussing Linux for the PC, so let's fucking stick to it or otherwise you'll tell me how beautiful Android is.
                      It's no different on desktop. I sent you a link to someone running XFCE on Mutter last year and you promptly ignored it because you're a fucking child.

                      https://www.reddit.com/r/linux/comme..._swapping_out/

                      And here I am in October sending you the same link.

                      https://www.phoronix.com/forums/foru...60#post1287360

                      Originally posted by birdie View Post
                      3. People who run Gnome under Wayland under Jesus endorsed AMD and Intel GPUs have horrible bugs. Too lazy to find them now. If you really want me, I'll go and find them. Something about lags and refresh rates at the very least.
                      Sure. Put in some work. That being said, all drivers have bugs. Wayland's issues on Nvidia cards come from lack of support for DRM properties and some EGL extensions. And lets not forget that for a long while Gnome had to support an entirely separate backend to support Nvidia cards and it couldn't support hardware accelerated XWayland until Nvidia finally decided to support a specific kernel feature after years of refusing to.

                      Originally posted by birdie View Post
                      4. I don't fucking care what you said about NVIDIA, Wayland has issues in itself. Stop subverting the topic for fuck's sake.
                      birdie: Don't you talk about my baby, Nvidia! They did nothing wrong.

                      No one is subverting any issues. Wayland has issues. They're just not the issues you think it has though. The ones that are preventing adoption aren't problems with the protocol or it's design.


                      Originally posted by birdie View Post
                      5. Ad hominem, great.
                      I'm allowed after spending days of my life correcting you about stuff just to have you a ignore it... like a child.

                      Originally posted by birdie View Post
                      Overall: 0 arguments for Wayland from you.
                      From two posts ago...
                      Originally posted by Myownfriend View Post
                      A Wayland compositor has far less latency without introducing tearing and it offers the ability to have multi-monitor setups with mixed DPIs and refresh rates. You can get something that looks like mixed DPIs on X11 but it looks worse, has far worse performance, and uses more VRAM.
                      Originally posted by birdie View Post
                      0 arguments against NVIDIA from you.
                      This entire post mentions the aforementioned EGL extension and a DRM property along with what their lack of support breaks.

                      https://www.phoronix.com/forums/foru...74#post1319874

                      Originally posted by Myownfriend View Post
                      Have fun in your "Wayland is perfect but NVIDIA!" bubble.
                      Instead of being the worlds oldest brat, cite me saying that Wayland is perfect.

                      Originally posted by Myownfriend View Post
                      Actually I promised myself a year or two ago to ignore your posts completely. I've again made a mistake and forgotten about my promise. Sorry, and goodbye.
                      Bruh, just leave. You dont wanna be here and you're not wanted here lol Besides you might have been answering my posts but you've been ignoring the contents thus aaaall the bullshit you repeat day in, day out for mooonths. You're a ridiculously bratty for someone your age and it's sad lol

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