You didn't answer the question. If applications can already disable WM decorations, then what's your problem?
Answer that please, instead of talking around it and trying to sneak out, Mr. Usability Authority.
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Originally posted by RealNC View PostHave you ever ran Chrome on Linux?
Originally posted by RealNC View PostDo you actually know that applications can bypass window manager decorations right now on X?
Originally posted by RealNC View PostAnd who are you to claim authority over who should define the look and feel of buttons?
My views on usability and consistency on that matter are backed up by John Siracusa from ArsTechnica who repeatedly criticized similar instances under OSX (iTunes? vertical window buttons, ?natural? look of Address Book, etc.).
Originally posted by Ancurio View PostWhat the hell are you talking about? If you were familiar with Wayland in even the slightest,
you'd have long known that this is a standpoint Khristian has made clear he won't leave.
It's not going to happen, period.
Originally posted by Ancurio View PostConsistency within app > fake consistency across apps. [?] Actually, it's not going to be an issue at all. If you look at how native theme engines can make either Qt look almost the same as GTK and vise versa
What you simply fail to understand is that it's not about the look alone, even though I repeatedly wrote ?look and feel?.
Once users get GNOME applications into their hand which they cannon minimize under other DEs (Plasma Desktop or whatever) because minimizing is not something that fits into GNOME Shell?s workflow, a shitstorm will break out.
Originally posted by Ancurio View PostProject leader's words > your gut feeling.
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Originally posted by Awesomeness View PostAnd who are you to claim authority over the all future development decisions?
you'd have long known that this is a standpoint Khristian has made clear he won't leave.
It's not going to happen, period.
Originally posted by Awesomeness View PostIf you can be tricked by a title bar how the application itself looks, you'd be the biggest retard the world has ever seen.
The toolkit even has nothing to do with this. If each application can decide how title bars look and feel, it'll lead do inconsistencies even within applications using a shared toolkit.
but to have a consistent experience it doesn't really help to have a tiny scratch at the top look the same across all apps,
while the titlebar and actual content mismatch in style. Consistency within app > fake consistency across apps.
Originally posted by Awesomeness View PostConsidering that as part of Canonical's usability vision they need to have control over all title bars. I doubt they'll be willing to let application developers fuck up Unity's look and feel. Canonical can be surprisingly persuasive and even willing to actually contribute code when it comes to that. It was Canonical who wrote and contributed the code to Qt to export application menus via dbus to make Qt applications integrate into Unity.
Actually, it's not going to be an issue at all. If you look at how native theme engines can make either Qt look almost the same as GTK and vise versa,
there might not even be a need for a shared library with deco drawing routines / unified theming.
Originally posted by Awesomeness View PostWell, I'm curious how it'll actually end up. I have the gut feeling that in the end applications won't get complete control over the window decoration, despite Wayland's design intentions.
Originally posted by Awesomeness View PostNo idea which lag you are referring to.
I'm not really good at explaining it, but I've sure experienced it with apps like Inkscape.
You should consult Wayland resources for info on that.
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Have you ever ran Chrome on Linux? Do you actually know that applications can bypass window manager decorations right now on X? The window decorations cannot be enforced.
So seriously, what are you talking about? On Wayland, window decorations will be standardized by your DE. All KDE apps will still look the same. All Gnome apps will look the same. Unless an app doesn't want to.
Originally posted by Awesomeness View PostThe look and feel of that button should be defined by the WM.Last edited by RealNC; 02 September 2012, 05:16 AM.
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Originally posted by RealNC View PostOriginally posted by Awesomeness View PostSure they can. That is one possible use case for dbus-menu: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x1bm7Q6_SH4
The look and feel of that button should be defined by the WM.
Originally posted by Ancurio View PostWell then you probably shouldn't also ever bother about using Wayland, as this design decision will not change =)
Originally posted by Ancurio View PostWhy should applications trick me into thinking they look the same with same titlebars, when their window is rendered completely differently from each other (Qt, GTK, EFL)?
The toolkit even has nothing to do with this. If each application can decide how title bars look and feel, it'll lead do inconsistencies even within applications using a shared toolkit.
Considering that as part of Canonical's usability vision they need to have control over all title bars. I doubt they'll be willing to let application developers fuck up Unity's look and feel. Canonical can be surprisingly persuasive and even willing to actually contribute code when it comes to that. It was Canonical who wrote and contributed the code to Qt to export application menus via dbus to make Qt applications integrate into Unity.
Well, I'm curious how it'll actually end up. I have the gut feeling that in the end applications won't get complete control over the window decoration, despite Wayland's design intentions.
Originally posted by Ancurio View PostIt's not meant to make it easier, it's meant to make fucking roundtrip lag disappear.
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Originally posted by stqn View PostI don?t understand? Is Windows a good example of how to make things? Do we want to clone Windows?
But I do think that the developers of Wayland (or any other similar system) should know how others designed and architectured their solution and why they chose that particular design.
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Originally posted by stqn View PostYou?re right, of course? Qt should look and behave exactly like Gtk. Making apps responsible for drawing their title bar isn?t going to make it any easier.
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Originally posted by Ancurio View PostWhy should each use different schemes for "yes" "no", "apply" "cancel" buttons?
Why should every application use their own font rendering system? Their own drawing primitives?
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Originally posted by disgrace View Post
Is client-side decoration default or optional?
Does Windows support server/wm-side decorations?
Which is default?
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