systemd Rolling Out "run0" As sudo Alternative

[Beryesa]

Incoming 20-page comments section:

[Artim]

You can't opt-out of most features unless you compile it yourself

That's true for absolutely everything. Either you compile it yourself or you need to use whatever your distributor ships. The point is, systemd is a common sense, unified replacement for a lot of things. And believing the xz vulnearability wouldn't have been possible when systemd wasn't a thing is just naive beyond believe. It was just used what is relatively commonly used. systemd was patched into openssh for notifications. If systemd wouldn't have existed, something else would have been used and ther would maybe have been some different exploit. The person(s) involved didn't even really try to write an actually bad exploit, the circumstances under which the exploit would be activated where extremely specific. If they actually tried, systemd would have been the most irrelevant component in the exploit.

[Kjell]

There's nothing or nobody forcing you to use a specific feature

Wrong

Majority of non obscure distros come with hard dependency on systemd

The package itself is usually compiled with all modules even if you personally don't use them

If you try packages from Arch Linux's repository in Artix Linux (fork with alternative init), you'll notice how deeply rooted systemd is. E.g. packages requiring various components like systemd-run

# Modules included out of the box with minimal "base" pacstrap in Arch Linux
systemd-ac-power
systemd-analyze
systemd-ask-password
systemd-cat
systemd-cgls
systemd-cgtop
systemd-confext
systemd-creds
systemd-cryptenroll
systemd-cryptsetup
systemd-delta
systemd-detect-virt
systemd-dissect
systemd-escape
systemd-firstboot
systemd-hwdb
systemd-id128
systemd-inhibit
systemd-journald
systemd-libs
systemd-logind
systemd-machine-id-setup
systemd-machined
systemd-mount
systemd-notify
systemd-nspawn
systemd-path
systemd-repart
systemd-resolve
systemd-run
systemd-socket-activate
systemd-stdio-bridge
systemd-sysext
systemd-sysusers
systemd-tmpfiles
systemd-tty-ask-password-agent
systemd-udevd
systemd-umount
systemd-userwork
systemd-vmspawn
systemd-userdbd
(soon) systemd-importctl
(soon) systemd-ssh-generator
(soon) systemd-vpick
(user dependent) systemd-boot
(user dependent) systemd-homed​

[back2未來]

[ basic criticism is, that systemd is binaries, while some predecessors are scripts utilizing more basic system tools, that are under strong review(?) ]

[varikonniemi]

The basic problem with packaging more and more into systemd is not that it happens, but that it happens in a way that is not interoperable.

No-one would care if you could take a distro, and switch out systemd package tot sysV and be done. But since systemd is written in such a way that it is not possible, it becomes a problem.

Same has happened previously with DE:s. You are supposed to just be able to install a DE package and run another DE on your setup. But in practice it's very problematic, and people just suggest to install a spin of the OS with the desired DE.

These are issues of people not caring to be interoperable, since their project is all that matters.

[holunder]

can you explain a bit more about this bad moderation?

Mastodon•social has a rather slow moderation, much spam accounts and typically rather bans more left-wing accounts in conflicts rather than the right-wingers with hate agenda. Also, it’s federating with Meta’s "Threads", allowing queer-hating ("queerphobic") accounts like "Libs of TikTok" to interact with the fediverse.

[Britoid]

systemd is vendor lock-in at this point

You can't opt-out of most features unless you compile it yourself

Packages are gradually starting to depend on functionality of systemd

We no longer have the freedom of choice as they're pushing more and more features into a single point of failure.. XZ vulnerability depended on functionality of systemd (edit: for those missing the bigger point, such problems are a biproduct of feature creep. Also, let's not discuss how buggy core components like systemd-networkd & systemd-resolved are and how many attack vectors systemd introduces with the amount of modules they provide).

How far will this go?
systemd/GNU/Linux

Ignoring the hyperbole, I would say given that systemd is a far more important part of the userland now than GNU, that yes systemd/GNU/Linux is appropriate.

[Artim]

Wrong

Majority of non obscure distros come with hard dependency on systemd

The package itself is usually compiled with all modules even if you personally don't use them

If you try packages from Arch Linux's repository in Artix Linux (fork with alternative init), you'll notice how deeply rooted systemd is. E.g. packages requiring various components like systemd-run

systemd-ac-power
systemd-analyze
systemd-ask-password
systemd-cat
systemd-cgls
systemd-cgtop
systemd-confext
systemd-creds
systemd-cryptenroll
systemd-cryptsetup
systemd-delta
systemd-detect-virt
systemd-dissect
systemd-escape
systemd-firstboot
systemd-hwdb
systemd-id128
systemd-inhibit
systemd-machine-id-setup
systemd-mount
systemd-notify
systemd-nspawn
systemd-path
systemd-repart
systemd-resolve
systemd-run
systemd-socket-activate
systemd-stdio-bridge
systemd-sysext
systemd-sysusers
systemd-tmpfiles
systemd-tty-ask-password-agent
systemd-umount
systemd-vmspawn
(soon) systemd-importctl
(soon) systemd-ssh-generator
(soon) systemd-vpick
(distro dependent) systemd-boot
(distro dependent) systemd-homed​

...and? That's exactly what the majority of users wants. Back when Debian first adopted systemd, they had a vote on it and about two years later they re-evaluated their decision. The result both times was that people want systemd. If you want to do something else than everyone around you, that's always work. If SysV Init was still a thing - and thank the gods that abomination is finally dying out - it would be a same thing. Just that you had many dependencies on many wildly different and incompatible approaches for everything. So quit whining and just use what everyone's using or do the work of building something on your own.

[Artim]

[ basic criticism is, that systemd is binaries, while some predecessors are scripts utilizing more basic system tools, that are under strong review(?) ]

Unmaintainable, pretty much not readable scripts. It's called progress. Live with it or do better. I doubt very much the likes of SysV Init are stronger reviewed than systemd that's used by everyone. Sure, those scripts are way older, but since they are phased out in any productive environment, you can't really tell them "under strong review" as nobody cares about them anymore.

[Quackdoc]

BTW, please come to the Fediverse/Mastodon, Phoronix!
And I don’t mean Mastodon•social because many instances are already blocking them for bad moderation.

all of these mastodon things seem kinda janky in reality, I've tried using them on numerous occasions and it's just not good. That's not to say the concept of a federated twitter alternative is bad, Mastodon is bad though