Latest Round Of Debian Systemd vs. Upstart Voting Ends

[justmy2cents]

The Linux specific part is technical, and true, and acknowledged by the authors. It will be Linux specific until someone implements the features needed on another kernel.
However, Upstart is Linux specific too until it actually works with another kernel. The fact it doesn't depend on Linux specific features will not make a working port appear out of nowhere. First finish the BSD port and start a Hurd port, then claim it can be used with them.

https://lists.debian.org/debian-ctte/2013/12/msg00019.html

based on this, that's the reason why they need debian. they lack free manpower, lol

whole upstart is more or less excuses&accusations, lol. sadly, it is starting to show one of most prominent distros in the wild really flaky.

[intellivision]

Nah. Let Debian having hard lesson themselves for having Canonical influence and non-technical stuff impending the voting process.
Should Debian want to become irrelevant with the status quo like keep using sysv, so be it. Meawhile, other distributions are moving forward.

Like Gentoo with improving OpenRC, which now can boot both Hurd and FreeBSD, and it also supports cgroups.

In fact, as far as features go OpenRC surpasses Upstart.

[Chaz]

Well, it seems the time for rational, technical discussions has ended. Now it's the time for cheap political maneuvering and vote mangling. The systemd community has no incentive to take over the Debian decision making procedures, but Ubuntu has every incentive to do so, and it's willing to do that, so we'll see exactly that. So, systemd proponents, please, put the Upstart in your last preference options. That will force two Schwarz winners, and if the casting vote is with systemd, then all is set. They are manipulating the vote, so, please, do it too, or you will be defeated.

It hasn't gotten quite that bad yet. In the last vote Ian, Steve, and Andi buried DT below FD to block it, but Colin didn't go along with that. Unless I'm missing something, if they had finished that vote Bdale and Keith could have made DT (or DL, UT, or UL) the winner just by putting it first, regardless of where they put FD.

Anthony Towns sums up the votes here, but he seems to see it your way. I'm not sure why.

https://lists.debian.org/debian-ctte/2014/02/msg00137.html

[GreatEmerald]

What's with all the claims that Gentoo doesn't support systemd? OpenRC is the default, but the entire point of Gentoo is you chose which USEflags *you* want. I've been using systemd on Gentoo for years, it's taken a while for good coverage of systemd units for various services, but it's pretty much there now.

From my perspective it's much better than OpenRC. I've been using Gentoo for long enough that OpenRC still feels like a pretty new development!

Yes, at the moment they seem to support systemd and OpenRC equally. But it was a much different situation just one year ago; systemd was clearly treated as a second-rate citizen. And yes, for DIY distributions like Gentoo and Arch, systemd is a huge improvement.

Simple: Default to systemd, Debian wide. Fall back to good old sysvinit.

Upstart/etc., if they want to support it to provide branches in parallel of the entire tree.

Done.

The problem is that they do want to support it, but they don't want to put the effort to actually support it themselves and want to instead manipulate the maintainers into doing that (or keeping sysvinit scripts that everyone hates dealing with).

Wikipedia has the potential to be a fairly accurate distro counter (assuming web browsers accurately reported their distro, which I think a lot don't), but they haven't done the work needed to properly identify distros. Basically they sort Linux into "Ubuntu" and "Other Linux" and even that distinction is questionable. The Wikipedia folks say they aren't going to ever fix this, because finding out which Linux distro you use does not help them make a better encyclopedia. I'm kind of surprised some Linux fans haven't gotten together and done the work themselves; surely Wikipedia would accept their code?

Can you even find out the distribution from a browser? Counting usually goes through the user agent, which is no longer being set to indicate the distribution in order to reduce fingerprinting.

[Chaz]

Can you even find out the distribution from a browser? Counting usually goes through the user agent, which is no longer being set to indicate the distribution in order to reduce fingerprinting.

Good point. Another option would be to just get the numbers from the browser makers. The browser makers do still record your hardware configuration for their own use (in Firefox some of this is opt-in, so that skews the sample), so if they just published their OS numbers someone could add them up and we'd be done.

[dontdieych]

Yup, as long as the Canonical guys all vote FD ahead of System D they can block System D. Perversely, this does not necessarily mean they deadlock. If any of the System D supporters vote D > U > FD then their bastardized Condorcet process will declare U the winner. So to defend against that the D supporters all have to bury U below FD as well so they deadlock.

It's 'systemd', officially.

[Chaz]

It's 'systemd', officially.

I know, I think the official spelling is bad English so I don't use it. In English proper nouns are capitalized (meaning the first letter is a capital and the rest lowercase) and words and letters aren't jammed together awkwardly. I also don't think acronyms/initialisms should have all letters capital unless people actually say the separate letters. So I write "System D" and "Gnu" and and "I-Mac" and so on. I also refuse to say "OS X". That one's "Mac OS".

[doom_Oo7]

I know, I think the official spelling is bad English so I don't use it. In English proper nouns are capitalized [...]

The Debian CTTE should vote to decide what is proper english and what is not.

[Chaz]

The Debian CTTE should vote to decide what is proper english and what is not.

I demand that we simultaneously decide whether these rules of English should apply to humans and parrots or only to humans and blue parrots. This issue must be settled in the same ballot, because my ranking of the various standards of English depends on whether green parrots will be expected to comply.

[pal666]

majority of desktop linux users use Upstart

users neither choose nor care about init
distributions do
and most of distributions chose systemd over upstart
actually, upstart was chosen only by 2 distros, and only because upstart author worked for them and did the choosing - pretty pathetic performance, isn't it ?