Originally posted by Rallos Zek
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Alan Cox Calls Fedora 18 "The Worst Red Hat Distro"
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Originally posted by tomato View PostSorry, but it does make sense to have a log out, always, it means: close local applications, leave computer ready for remote access. (Also: restart X server gracefully)
If you have read carefully, no logout applies for the case where there is a single user and a single desktop environment.
What you described above means testing yourself and see if there is no logout when starting from console mode.
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Originally posted by BO$$ View PostI just fucking love the justification level this guy reaches: look! Others have problems too! Look at Ubuntu! They have bugs too! We have bugs in previous releases so why shouldn't we have bugs in this one? Bugs are perfectly normal! I mean what is so wrong with having bugs? You should learn to cherish your bugs! Learn to live with them, learn from them, accept them! They are OK! You are OK! See? You are both OK! Marry your bugs! Love them! Learn to be patient and solve your bugs instead of doing your work! Everybody has bugs! Why should we be below them and have less?
Originally posted by BO$$ View PostThere are billions of combinations of hardware! Why do you think it should work? It shouldn't! If the last past 3 releases it didn't work it's because you weren't lucky! Not our fault at all! Why should we be expected to actually test code on different machines? It's insane, think of the billions of combinations!
Originally posted by BO$$ View PostAnd in a different note: You rewrote the installer? Bwhahahaha! RULE NUMBER 0: NEVER REWRITE APPLICATIONS FROM GROUND UP! I thought you knew this stuff! They teach this shit early when you learn coding for christ sake. Everytime there is a new idiot thinking that he is better and starts to rewrite an application thinking this time it will be better, and in the end, after trillions of bugs and frustrated users that leave his product, he ends up where he was before he begun!
Originally posted by BO$$ View PostThat maintenance thing is just bullshit. Learn to use interfaces so that when implementations change you can still have your old functionality. I wonder how incompetent can you be. Then I realize this is Red Hat we're talking about....
BO$$ - always grabbing on to one easily demonstrated false assumption and running with it.
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Originally posted by RealNC View PostOh yes, it is.
You are somewhat right in that Fedora may be a bit more flakey then Ubuntu, but my experience is that that is because Fedora actually fixes teir bugs in between releases. Sometimes that introduces new regressions. But they are pretty fast on resolving those IF you report them.
That said, Fedora may not be what you want to run at your company productivity 24/7 server unless you know what you are doing. But most Fedora people I meet tend to run CentOS there if they do not have a reason to pay for support.
Fedora is the more "set up a test server and see how you may handle that migration lurking on the horizon".
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Originally posted by AdamW View PostSo a couple of reasons...
1. the oldUI code was not cleanly separated from the backend, they were pretty much tied together.
2. the old UI kinda sucked. I mean, it wasn't good. Re-doing it has been on the table for a while. Just because the new UI has some teething problems doesn't mean the old one exactly cured cancer - tell me http://media.if-not-true-then-false....ation-type.png is a great screen, for instance (lots of people got *used* to it, but take a step back and tell me it's an awesome screen). Or the screen you got when you clicked on 'Change device' on http://media.if-not-true-then-false....oot-loader.png (sadly not pictured in that walkthrough), that was awesome. Or my favourite giant ball of win, and pretty much where Mo started seriously looking at the installer design: https://fedoraproject.org/w/uploads/...enshot_f14.png .
If you read through the archives of Mo's blog at http://blog.linuxgrrl.com/category/fedora/anaconda/ , which I really highly recommend doing, you can see where a lot of the newUI design came from, and a lot of the problems Mo identified in the old design. It's not just redesign for redesign's sake. The post on creating a RAID /home is particularly interesting when it comes to the new partitioning approach - http://blog.linuxgrrl.com/2011/12/14...g-ui-thus-far/ .
I read through that post, and urgh. The solution feels like demolishing a building and rebuilding it anew, just because the door was too small. Even in those mockups, the design is completely counter-intuitive... If I want to have a partitioning scheme, I would like to see partitions. Not buffets in an RPG. The selections there feel a lot like the old installation type selection, except that it has no "manual" button. It's hard to tell what exactly will be done. Now the part with RAID options is pretty good, that's true, but everything around it contains no useful information... I'd say that the ideal approach should have been fixing the suboptimal choices in the old UI, without throwing the whole concept out. Make it an evolution of the UI, not a revolution. But I suppose nothing can be done about it now. Well, except for making it intuitive again, of course, and I think there will be plenty of ideas on how to do it now, since the first version is out.
Originally posted by AdamW View PostLogging into the desktop as root is never correct, as it causes all kinds of processes which are not intended to run as root and do likely do not have proper protection against running as root to run as root. Logging into a console as root is of course fine, though some would argue sudo is a superior model.
So I see the optimal workflow as opening the setup tool, selecting all the needed options, and once that's done, hit a big "Apply" button which then gives a summary of what you changed and what privileges will giving the password grant the program. If you have not changed partitioning, the program should not be allowed to make changes to the partition table, that's only natural. If you see it requiring more than that, then the application must be malfunctioning or compromised. So in the end you need to enter the password only once, and you know exactly what the program will do.
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Originally posted by eliac View PostRemember: logout by default is not shown if there's a single user and only the Gnome shell session is available.
Originally posted by eliac View PostReally, that's what this silly fuss is about: a default that makes sense for the less techincal user and that whoever needs differently can override in about 30 seconds. The computer version of "first world problems", I'd say
Originally posted by AdamW View Post"Fedora 17 had an installer that worked just fine. So you could have continued to use that, and optionally provide your new installer to those who want to test it."
That's not how things work in practice at all. You are by all means free to confirm this for yourself: take the Fedora 17 installer, plop it down in the Fedora 18 package set, and try to build an installer image. Ten to one it won't even compose, but on the offchance that it does, the composed image will _certainly_ be entirely busted. It won't work at all and will probably eat babies.
Of course past a point where the old installer was abandoned and unmaintained you cannot just go back to it. The backup plan needed to be in place and made sure to work during the whole development cycle. The lack of backup plan meant that you were now out of options and stuck with the new installer.
Originally posted by AdamW View Post"You could have recommended users to ditch the installer altogether and link to a document instead which describes manual partitioning + febootstrap as the preferred install method (Gentoo does it like this, and Arch has recently adopted this way too)"
That's...interesting, but really not in line with how Fedora rolls, I don't think. It would have been just too drastic for a single release.
Originally posted by AdamW View PostnewUI really isn't that terrible, you know; quite a few people have been saying 'it worked fine for me, I don't get the fuss'.
"You could have labeled Fedora 18 as "Forever Beta" and not make it an official release, just something for the interested."
That again would have been a valid approach, but I'm not sure it buys us a lot. At this point we have the same product and it's just about massaging the messaging. That's something we already tried to do with the release announcement and other release documentation, and see how much slack that's bought us.
newUI is bad enough for some high-profile users to switch to another distro. How is that not terrible? Remember these are not users who are indifferent towards the distro they use, they have chosen Fedora and put trust in your releases. Now they feel that their trust has been betrayed.
And that people don't read the release documentation should not come as a surprise. Look, http://fedoraproject.org/ says "Fedora 18" in large letters so they think that is what you want them to download and install. The release announcement is not even linked from that page afaict.
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The privilage model is not flawed, but not perfect either. That is why Fedora has SELinux (Security Enhanced Linux), that implements MAC (Mandatory Acces Control).
You should not even have to run anything as root, except some commands, in which case "su" in a terminal is better than "sudo", because with sudo you either constantly have to type the damn sudo command, or automatically get root rights for a period of time, so the user looses track of what commands run as root, and what runs as user. Better just have a root terminal where one can be sure what commands will run as root and what commands run as user.
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