Devuan 5.0 Released For Debian 12 Without systemd

[jacob]

Well, I do give a shit. I will switch to Devuan, if Debian/Systemd becomes unacceptable to me. This is what freedom is all about, being independet, not having a vendor lock-in.

Use whatever works for you, but honestly I never understood this argument. There is absolutely no vendor lock-in in relation to systemd. It's fully FOSS, LGPL licensed code, which makes it exactly as free and open as Smoorenburg's sysvinit clone (which is GPL2+). Neither can be made proprietary and both respect the Four Freedoms in the same way.

[jacob]

Good! All power to them. I like systemd on my Arch and my servers (mostly also Arch, some Ubuntu). But I want options and systemd is potentially dangerous. I remember all the ridicule the Devuan devs received when it was conceived. They delivered, all the haters should eat sh*t now. I guess that's too much to hope for though.

The ridicule was not because Devuan was conceived. It was and still is about the enormous gap between the grandiosity of their claims and the much more mundane reality of Devuan as another semi-obscure distro that people marginally hear about once in a blue moon when they release a new version. It was also about some displays of sheer incompetence in the management of their project (like the expired package repo keys). It was also about the hysterical hate and fanaticism that have always been inherent to this particular non-systemd distro as opposed to other non-systemd distros. Remember their emails to Poettering with Nazi references? Remember how they "jokingly" suggested to run a fundraiser to hire an assassin against Lennart? That's why they got and will keep getting all the ridicule they deserve.

[bachchain]

I'm surprised the Devuanites haven't gotten bored yet and found something else to contrarianize over.

[rogerx]

It is about time something news worthy has been posted!

Yeah! Something not supporting systemd!

Booh... then mentions wayland. ... sigh!

[creative]

As a Slackware current user, projects like this get nothing but praise from me. Not every distribution has to be running systemd.

[jacob]

As a Slackware current user, projects like this get nothing but praise from me. Not every distribution has to be running systemd.

The issue though is that many of those distros don't realise or accept that when they do that, they must endorse the responsibility for being incompatible with the mainstream. They are not going to change the reality that it is now common for upstream projects to rely on systemd, and such software doesn't run out of the box on their distros. So they must either forfeit it, or do the actual work to either port the software, or implement the necessary shims for it to run. But many refuse to do that, instead they become bitter and abusive towards the majority.

[Gusar]

or do the actual work to either port the software, or implement the necessary shims for it to run.

Devuan folks are doing exactly that. For example, they added libseat support to X.

Also, libseat itself is such a shim. Wayland compositors either ran as root similarly to X, or relied on logind. Which was a problem for BSDs, as there's no systemd (and hence no logind) there. The solution to that was libseat/seatd. Which works equally well on Linux too, if you don't want to run systemd.

Some people are b*tching on forums. But some, like the Devuan folks, are actually doing something. They deserve praise for that.

[creative]

The issue though is that many of those distros don't realise or accept that when they do that, they must endorse the responsibility for being incompatible with the mainstream. They are not going to change the reality that it is now common for upstream projects to rely on systemd, and such software doesn't run out of the box on their distros. So they must either forfeit it, or do the actual work to either port the software, or implement the necessary shims for it to run. But many refuse to do that, instead they become bitter and abusive towards the majority.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Fz8Ldw-s8_Q&pp=ygUYQXJndW1lbnQgYWdhaW5zdCBzeXN0ZW1k

[creative]

All that being said, I think systemd is great, I have Manjaro running it and it's perfectly fine, I've used systemd extensively over the years. I made a simple statement though, not every distribution has to be running systemd. I'm perfectly happy daily driving Slackware without it. Choice.

[creative]

One of my reasons for dumping systemd was cause of stop jobs, I have 7 ssd's in my system and when I'm shutting off my setup and it decides to shit a stop job plus all the drives I have, when I 'm about to get sleep and I see that for 90 seconds plus, it reminds me of Windows update holding the operator hostage out of the blue when powering off. That's one of my personal experiences of anger with it, I had had with it. I got to point where I didn't feel confident in it's ability to properly dismount all my drives and maybe even running a risk of it messing up the data integrity of my drives.

People can harp on concerning the politics of it, I am completely apolitical, I make decisions based off my own experience. Manjaro will just remain my backup and that's about it.

I know I sound contradictory to the above mentioned but it does seem to be great for the majority of use cases, just not mine anymore.