System76 Making Progress With COSMIC Desktop - 10-bit Color Support Added, HDR Plans

[royce]

How about a DE that let's me decide how I want to use my system?

But you have tons of those already. How about you reduce your expectations that everyone owes you software that exactly adapts to your narrow, specific use case? If you don't like that Cosmic doesn't have desktop icons that's fair. Jog on, instead of dumping negativity on other people's efforts.

The entitlement of some people is astounding.

[AmericanLocomotive]

But you have tons of those already. How about you reduce your expectations that everyone owes you software that exactly adapts to your narrow, specific use case? If you don't like that Cosmic doesn't have desktop icons that's fair. Jog on, instead of dumping negativity on other people's efforts.

The entitlement of some people is astounding.

This is the exact kind of thinking why Linux STILL isn't remotely close to being mainstream. A ton of Linux users (and developers) seem to be completely detached from how the vast majority of people actually use their computer. They sit in their little isolated online communities with 20 other users who believe the same, and then go "This must be how everyone users their computer now!", and then sit and wonder why Linux still registers ~1% on things like the Steam Hardware Survey.

Like seriously, in what reality is using the desktop of a DE as a place to put files and use it as a scratch pad a "narrow, specific use case"? That is literally how the vast majority of PC users use their computer. It's what basically all Windows and Mac OS users have done for 30 years. The vast majority of people alive today know and understand desktop icons. It's what they grew up on, it's how they use their system. Even iOS and most Android distributions implement a a pseudo-desktop metaphor with icons and folders on their "homescreens".

So when you see a new "up and coming DE" not even having the option of desktop icons, it's completely valid to criticize it.

[Khrundel]

That's a terrible argument. It all comes down to "you have quick launch, you don't need desktop icons". In real life, Microsoft also offered a shortcut to quickly show the desktop, precisely because windows will often cover part/all of the desktop icons. Plus, I'm not one to fill my desktop with icons and still, the icons I do have on the desktop, would never fit in quick launch. Just because you have an alternative is not an argument in favor of killing everything else with fire. Btw, following your train of thought, after quick launch, we got searching. Should we get rid of quick launch, too, now?

I prefer to call it "task driven argument". You share your need and DE developer gives you some convenient way to achieve that. If your answer is "yes, this solves it, but I want this to be implemented other way" I see this as a whim. And I do not understand why your caprice is more relevant than whim of next guy, who prefer this to be implemented as a rotating wheel of icons for example. And no, if instead of favorite list they would offer you a textual search or "just browse a list of all apps" I would recognize this as missing feature because "find an app by part of its name" is something other than "show me a list of my handpicked apps".

[Khrundel]

I won’t use a DE that doesn’t have desktop icons as a feature. Sure, I have windows open, but a hotkey hides those windows and the desktop is a lot of wasted space without being able to have stuff there for quick access.

So you want to press some hotkey (meta+a for example) and see your favorite apps and whole screen full of icons, ready to be launched? Have a minute to hear about our Lord GNOME?

[Khrundel]

So if the idea of a desktop with currently opened files is terrible, may I ask what your real-life desktop (where your laptop/PC stands on) looks like? Maybe you're one to keep it clean most of the time, but I won't believe for a second that you never ever had files on there.

That is a source of a problem. UX developers of that time so despised their potential users, they didn't believe user can learn a new concept, no matter how simple it is. So they've created false analogy with real life object, and then have implemented some of this object's features. There are no any reason for screen background to mimic a real desktop. In real life I place a document there because I can't work with it while it lays within drawer. And, unlike real desktop, DE's one tend to become neglected and near to impossible to clean. That's how one dumb decision frustrates people for 30 years, forcing them to do monkey's work of "cleaning" one particular directory.

[Quackdoc]

...does it support desktop icons? ...or does it not, and they're are going to tell me why I no longer need to use my computer using a desktop metaphor, despite it being the defacto standard for 30 years?

CosmicDE is very much a product with the intent to be sold. S76 isn;t doing this out of pocket for good will, they are doing it because they sell desktops, and gnome/kde and the rest are not up to snuff. I can't comment for them, obviously, however if this is a desirable feature by more then a couple people (I myself would like this too!) I would be willing to bet cosmic devs would be willing to implement it. even if it isn't part of the 90% complete DE experience.

[AmericanLocomotive]

That is a source of a problem. UX developers of that time so despised their potential users, they didn't believe user can learn a new concept, no matter how simple it is. So they've created false analogy with real life object, and then have implemented some of this object's features. There are no any reason for screen background to mimic a real desktop. In real life I place a document there because I can't work with it while it lays within drawer. And, unlike real desktop, DE's one tend to become neglected and near to impossible to clean. That's how one dumb decision frustrates people for 30 years, forcing them to do monkey's work of "cleaning" one particular directory.

Good UX means following existing design paradigms - what users are familiar with. Nearly every PC, tablet, and phone user is familiar with a desktop metaphor. As that's what Windows, Mac OS, iOS and most Android phones employ (pseudo-desktop for phones/tablets, of course).

I don't know of a single person who is ever "frustrated" by icons, folders or files on their desktop. I do on the other hand see users frustrated when they have to drill down into endless menus and sub-folders to find what they're working on. Most users do not want to do that. They want to be able to dump files where they please, and access them the way they want. Contrary to popular belief, users don't want some Linux developer who doesn't hang out with anyone outside of the "bizarre-niche-DE club" telling them how they should use their system, or what their workflow should be.

There is a reason why macOS still uses desktop (and Apple frequently adds new features to make the desktop icon experience more enjoyable). There is a reason why Windows still has desktop icons. There is a reason why Valve chose to ship the Steamdeck with KDE. There is a reason why every phone and tablet has a "desktop" with icons and folders.

But some here keep thumping their chest and telling everyone else they're wrong, and that they'll be liberated by switching to exclusively to menus, more menus, sub-folders and a quick launch ...as they sit and wonder why no one wants to use Linux.

[sophisticles]

Thank God that someone has decided to create another Linux DE instead of working on fixing any of the current desktop environments.

I have always said, one can't have enough half baked desktop environments just like we can't have enough Linux based distros, most of them clones of a small handful of barely usable distros.

Really looking forward to trying out COSMIC failure once it's available,

[Khrundel]

Good UX means following existing design paradigms - what users are familiar with.

no. That is outright false. There are several real life objects which can resemble GUI desktop. A blackboard, a dashboard for example. When you select one of them you leave other overboard. And there are always plenty of people who would prefer another analogy. So, when instead of your favorite dashboard DE offers you lousy desktop you have to cope with it. And if you can adapt to a dumbest ever desktop metaphor, why you cant adapt to something more relevant to PC workflow?

Nearly every PC, tablet, and phone user is familiar with a desktop metaphor. As that's what Windows, Mac OS, iOS and most Android phones employ (pseudo-desktop for phones/tablets, of course).

Wat?
No.
Neither phone, nor tablet follow that stupid "desktop metaphor", not even modern PC GUI. Starting with Windows 98 "desktop metaphor" is deprecated and works in legacy mode. Can you name a single desktop metaphor improvement since windows 98? There are none. So, either it is perfect or it is abandoned.

I don't know of a single person who is ever "frustrated" by icons, folders or files on their desktop.

Of course you do know. It is you. When you decide to clean desktop or just reorder icons it is because you unhappy with them.

I do on the other hand see users frustrated when they have to drill down into endless menus and sub-folders to find what they're working on.

That is sad. Maybe they should ask their desktop developer to implement something like "recent files" feature or just find existing one.

Most users do not want to do that.

I respect that. They can, if they wish so, dump their files within documents directory without any structure. This doesn't require any desktop metaphor.

They want to be able to dump files where they please, and access them the way they want.

I'm sorry, they can't. They are unable to drop their files on taskbar. They are unable to drop within "settings" dialog, or wijthin main menu of some app. With so many restrijctions I do not understand why it is important to drop files to background behind all windows.

Contrary to popular belief, users don't want some Linux developer who doesn't hang out with anyone outside of the "bizarre-niche-DE club" telling them how they should use their system, or what their workflow should be.

That is just a bs. I'm sorry. Any DE dictates its users what they should do just by implementing its functions one way or another. You for some unknown reason just assume there is some blessed "desktop metaphopr" everyone like, but in real life most people do not care at all. Especially now, 15 years after desktop metaphor was dropped by most popular OSes. Neither android nor ios support desktop metaphor. None of them allows you to drop your file on "desktop". Now an argument about "de facto standard" looks especially ridiculous.

There is a reason why macOS still uses desktop (and Apple frequently adds new features to make the desktop icon experience more enjoyable). There is a reason why Windows still has desktop icons.

Know nothing about macs. As for windows, they tried to drop desktop 10 years ago, that is how they like it.

There is a reason why Valve chose to ship the Steamdeck with KDE.

OMG. Steamdeck is pseudo-console with a big-picture interface. For 1% of time its users work with bare OS they should see something windows-like.

There is a reason why every phone and tablet has a "desktop" with icons and folders.

Icons have nothing to do with desktop. GNOME for example has tons of icons but noone sane would say it follows "desktop metaphor".
The core feature of "desktop metaphor" is an existance of some "desktop" which is easily accessible and can store anything. Pretty dumb idea, if you ask me, to mix files with apps: most time you know whether you want to open some recent file or to launch some app. Is there any reason to store files and apps at same place? I think no.

[Quackdoc]

Thank God that someone has decided to create another Linux DE instead of working on fixing any of the current desktop environments.

I have always said, one can't have enough half baked desktop environments just like we can't have enough Linux based distros, most of them clones of a small handful of barely usable distros.

Really looking forward to trying out COSMIC failure once it's available,

well, it turns out that when none of the current DEs are worth fixing you need to start over from scratch. instead of half assedly trying to make something just barely work for you. it's better to do it right from the ground up. Gnome devs are a hostile pain to work with, so much as mocking S76 on public forums. so that's not even worth entertaining.

KDE/Kwin is so chock full of misc bugs and technical debt it's not even funny, but even discounting that, the amount of work that needs to be put in to mold QT to their design aesthetics is probably more work alone then worth while. Wlroots probably would have been more or less fine, but considering that the team has said that they prefer to use rust, and smithay is already pretty good, may as well just use a tad bit more effort and put it into something that will greatly speed up their development workflow by being written in a language they are more comfortable with?