Fedora Workstation 34 Should Be Very Exciting With GNOME 40, PipeWire Default

[ix900]

I'm still very skeptical about PipeWire. I've been testing it on and off in the last weeks. There are still numerous bugs, PulseAudio/ALSA compatibility issues and hardware incompatibilities. It's promising, but it's just too early for a general rollout.

Probably not more than I am but it will always have bugs. Alsa, puslesaudio, etc, etc all have bugs anyway. Just depends on how bad its going to be. Fedora 34 may be buggy junk or it may be brilliant. I'd go with the former personally. Gnome 40 + this is going to equal a lot more problems on top of Fedora 33 problems.

Wayland is not a piece of software. It's literally just a protocol that other software might implement. It's a whole different story.

Last time I checked they put out packages like everyone else. Call it what you will. I don't think most people would say protocol update packages. It comes through with all the software updates.

[dragon321]

Last time I checked they put out packages like everyone else. Call it what you will. I don't think most people would say protocol update packages. It comes through with all the software updates.

These packages are providing Wayland headers and protocol implementation (libwayland-server, libwayland-client etc.) with some additional libraries . They are used by compositors and applications to use Wayland protocol and implement Wayland support. They probably can implement whole protocol from scratch but there is no point of doing that. Without compositor they are useless and every compositor developers still needs to implement many things (or use existing compositor or library like wlroots). For the same reason libX11 is useless without X11 Server.

[AnAccount]

On Windows and Mac you have one default and working way to do it. On Linux you have no one default graphics lib you have at least GTK/QT. For windows decoration under X11 it was X protocol and some WMs who implemented it.
With Wayland it's complicated because we have only optional server side decorations... KDE and Sway support it but Gnome not. Gnome position can have sense if GTK will only one UI lib for Wayland/Linux (same as Windows/MacOs) but it's not true, also we have tons of games and graphics software which use something like SDL and can't and shouldn't link with GTK. Also for this types of software GTK provide extra overhead because just not designed for such things (have no direct rendering for example).

libdecoration can be good but maybe not... I didn't see a lot of activity here.

None of the above is something I care about at all as a user. If you want to develop your application using some specific technology, you should make sure that technology supports drawing borders if you like your application to have borders. I understand that the developers of said technology may have opinions about these kind of things, but that is pretty far down the stack from users.

[birdie]

Most.

Not all. If you are the user of that one piece of software that doesnt work, the rest doesnt matter.

(I have some 32 bit software that wont work on 64 bit windows)

Most is still a trillion times better than none or barely anything.

We are impatiently waiting for your money to pay the devs that make that happen (2/3 of the Microsoft Windows development team work on backwards compatibility)

Or your comparison between a multi-million corporation and a bunch of people developing on their free time is just to fulfill your desire of sticking out in the internet?

Me sticking out? Yeah, you're right, I'm sticking out the fact that Linux keeps being unusable outside a tightly knit group of geeks/IT pros. Maybe I'm just an idiot and everyone here wants Linux on the desktop to perpetually remain a niche half-broken, half-ready OS prone to regressions. You're right.

Sarcasm aside I want my brother and my non-IT related acquaintances to run Linux but I cannot afford that because their Windows installations run unattended for up to a decade, while a Linux kernel update can break crucial features, or a migration from X.org to Wayland may break their workflow. Linux continues to evolve, evolve and evolve, great, only people need to have work done and they don't care one bit about your new shiny underpinnings. 99.99% of people out there don't even know what bitness their version of Windows is or whether they are running programs compiled for Windows 10 or Windows 95, because they all just effing work.

Wake me up when something like that happens in Linux. When I can run an app written for KDE2 in 1997 in Ubuntu 25.10 without installing it in a VM or any lunacy like that.

If Linux is an elite club for the selected few, then I've got no questions, sir. Let it be this way. At least I've got this impressions from far too many people in these forums.

[JPFSanders]

If Linux is an elite club for the selected few, then I've got no questions, sir. Let it be this way. At least I've got this impressions from far too many people in these forums.

Birdie, why are you here? just to suffer? Oh, I see; you were just flying around indulging in this compulsion of yours to mindlessly poop over our heads.

[Volta]

Me sticking out? Yeah, you're right, I'm sticking out the fact that Linux keeps being unusable outside a tightly knit group of geeks/IT pros. Maybe I'm just an idiot and everyone here wants Linux on the desktop to perpetually remain a niche half-broken, half-ready OS prone to regressions. You're right.

Funny fact: Fedora (bleeding edge distribution) is perfectly stable on my Lenovo laptop, but windows 10 keeps breaking every few months thanks to 'updates'. Your beloved X is one of the reasons for big changes in Linux. It's not a surprise using legacy POS in modern times will sooner or later lead to huge efforts of fixing (replacing) it. However, when comes to Pulse Audio it was modern, but broken by design. I knew this when I noticed higher CPU usage with it. Hopefully PipeWire fixes this mess once and for all.

[getaceres]

Most is still a trillion times better than none or barely anything.



Me sticking out? Yeah, you're right, I'm sticking out the fact that Linux keeps being unusable outside a tightly knit group of geeks/IT pros. Maybe I'm just an idiot and everyone here wants Linux on the desktop to perpetually remain a niche half-broken, half-ready OS prone to regressions. You're right.

Sarcasm aside I want my brother and my non-IT related acquaintances to run Linux but I cannot afford that because their Windows installations run unattended for up to a decade, while a Linux kernel update can break crucial features, or a migration from X.org to Wayland may break their workflow. Linux continues to evolve, evolve and evolve, great, only people need to have work done and they don't care one bit about your new shiny underpinnings. 99.99% of people out there don't even know what bitness their version of Windows is or whether they are running programs compiled for Windows 10 or Windows 95, because they all just effing work.

Wake me up when something like that happens in Linux. When I can run an app written for KDE2 in 1997 in Ubuntu 25.10 without installing it in a VM or any lunacy like that.

If Linux is an elite club for the selected few, then I've got no questions, sir. Let it be this way. At least I've got this impressions from far too many people in these forums.

I've been maintaining my friends and family computers for a long time and most of the times I'm called because Windows stopped working by mysterious reasons. Most likely after an update that broke something. So no, Windows update path is not perfect and things stop working from one day to the next as every other operating system.
In the end, I decided to install Ubuntu to one of my cousins. The one that was calling me more often and, although I have to go to his house from time to time to make some new device work, my rate of technical support has descended because now his computer works like the first day it was installed, with two full Ubuntu updates in the middle, while his Windows setup needed a periodical format and reinstall because it tends to deteriorate over time just by itself.
Said that, I'm glad that he hasn't decided to buy a 4K monitor. I did it last month and oh my god. Linux is sooooo unprepared for 4K 60HZ and fractional scaling. Using it on my computer has been a nightmare with 60Hz being recognized as an option just half of the time and even when it's recognized the UI is slow as hell. While in windows is a pleasure to use a monitor like that, with crisp fonts and more space to use (I have it at 175%, so it's a bit more spacious than my old 1080 monitor) and scrolling is as smooth as ever, in Linux everything crawls like crazy. And I've tried KDE, GNOME and Deepin and none of them have come closer to the performance I get in Windows. For the first time in more than 10 years I had to change back to Windows as my primary OS because using Linux in this conditions is unbearable.

[oiaohm]

Sarcasm aside I want my brother and my non-IT related acquaintances to run Linux but I cannot afford that because their Windows installations run unattended for up to a decade, while a Linux kernel update can break crucial features, or a migration from X.org to Wayland may break their workflow. Linux continues to evolve, evolve and evolve, great, only people need to have work done and they don't care one bit about your new shiny underpinnings. 99.99% of people out there don't even know what bitness their version of Windows is or whether they are running programs compiled for Windows 10 or Windows 95, because they all just effing work.

Wake me up when something like that happens in Linux. When I can run an app written for KDE2 in 1997 in Ubuntu 25.10 without installing it in a VM or any lunacy like that.

The claims about Windows installs running for a decade without trouble is over blown by a large way.

https://libreoffice-dev.blogspot.com/2021/03/windows-10-is-bullshit-update-kb5000802.html

This is just one in a long list of Windows updates that bring the house down. So birdie its about time you take the rose colour glasses of about windows. Windows does result in percentage applications stopping working every year due to security updates and this is progressive. So the older the windows application is the more likely it will not run on current windows.

Valve work on proton is part due to how many Windows 95-ME applications valve have the legal right to ship/sell that don't work under Windows NT based operating systems. Being able to sell these applications to a small market like Linux users is better than not being able to sell these applications at all right. Heck even pre 2000 windows NT stuff that does not work on modern day Windows 7 and newer is also in there that Valve wants to sell. KDE 2 from 1997 is too far back to be reliability work even by Windows standards without VM. Basically KDE 2 from 1997 is going too far back to be reliable.

Ubuntu 25.10< So by this you mean the year 2025 I hope you know. Yes windows 10 by 2025 is unlikely that any 1997 windows application will work right. Like it or not Windows is evolving as well.

Users under windows are generally not aware how much manifest and SXS is doing for them.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Side-by-side_assembly << SXS

We are seeing SXS like stuff with the way flatpak, snapd and the new systemd extension images are being done. Linux is growing the systems to have multi ABIs installed at the same time. Please note with Gnome and KDE moving to running everything by systemd user mode this does mean the systemd extension images will come as a backward compatibility tool like SXS is under windows.

Migration from X11 to Wayland is a change that has to happen because X11 cannot meet many governments requirements to be deployed as a government desktop.

[skeevy420]

We are impatiently waiting for your money to pay the devs that make that happen (2/3 of the Microsoft Windows development team work on backwards compatibility)

Or your comparison between a multi-million corporation and a bunch of people developing on their free time is just to fulfill your desire of sticking out in the internet?

Um....GNOME, GTK, and everything in this thread (except the thread itself) is funded by a multi-million dollar corporation. It's called IBM. Most all the GNOME devs in this thread are being paid by them, not doing this in their free time. The ones that do it in their free time...well, look at that XDG link and see how they treat their users and people contributing in their free time.

So, basically, all of us bitching about GNOME and GTK have just as much merit as the people complaining about Windows since in both cases we're being guided by multi-million dollar corporations.

Windows, just like Red Hat, has a free edition and a paid for edition. Both their free editions require asterisks.

Maybe, just maybe, we'd consider paying for Red Hat Linux, give them our money, if they'd listen to the community, to their users, and figure out how to implement things like server side decorations because not everyone runs GTK3 applications from the GNOME project exclusively. Anyone saying that isn't that big of a deal never went through the early Win95/98 days of "GUIs are new and fun, everything should have it's own skin and look". I really disliked those days. GNOME essentially revamping that again just sucks.

Everything not part of the project won't look the same nor will it be managed the same. The latter is the more important one. I totally get a CD burner not looking the same as a text editor or a photo viewer. But close, stay on top, resize, maximize, minimize, that shit should be standard for every single program and window on a desktop. GNOME passing the buck sucks in that regard. They need to take inspiration from President Truman and say The Buck Stops Here. A window manager that doesn't manage all windows. The fuck...

[oiaohm]

Maybe, just maybe, we'd consider paying for Red Hat Linux, give them our money, if they'd listen to the community, to their users, and figure out how to implement things like server side decorations because not everyone runs GTK3 applications from the GNOME project exclusively. Anyone saying that isn't that big of a deal never went through the early Win95/98 days of "GUIs are new and fun, everything should have it's own skin and look". I really disliked those days. GNOME essentially revamping that again just sucks.

There are different logic here. Sometimes you don't want old applications to blend in at all. Why using old not maintained applications can be increased security risk.

So one section of community is asking for server side decorations and another group is asking for client side decorations and both for their usage case is right. Yes you are the usage case where you want the applications to all look like to each other. There is another group that will want GTK2/GTK3.... all to have unique themimg so you can age a application by what its windows boarder looks like.

Yes KDE and Gnome have gone a different path because with Client side decorations and server side decorations with wayland due to supporting different user bases.